What's wrong with the best drummers in the world?

in the hope of recieving some powerful influences for my drumming i tried to track down some relatively technically intensive stuff by some of the best drummers in the world eg. mike mangini, thomas lang and dave weckl but it seems that these drummers never actually go much further then doing the necessary in bands which is understandable and its good that they have that discipline but come on, these guys need to vent what they can do in some bands that inspire a better and more vast display of their drumming ability. Dave weckl does kinda but falls back on very generic jazz fusion structures and mike mangini played for annihlator and in terms of drumming, that band requires basic basic stuff, also thomas lang has released one solo album that i cant get hold of, its sad to think that the most we will hear is from drummers like mike portnoy who is brave enough to get really avant garde with standard amount taught to him at berklee. pls give some intelligent reasons for this

Certain types of music demand certain types of drumming. Unless you listen to prog rock or alternative, ie dreamtheater etc your unlikely to find anything massively exciting as it just isn't required. Most things beyond that are only useful in personal development and soloing, so try and find some of these guys solos; and research the techniques and patterns they emply there, or grab some educational DVDs etc... Hope that's of some use...

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Originally Posted by progmuso

in the hope of recieving some powerful influences for my drumming i tried to track down some relatively technically intensive stuff by some of the best drummers in the world eg. mike mangini, thomas lang and dave weckl but it seems that these drummers never actually go much further then doing the necessary in bands which is understandable and its good that they have that discipline but come on, these guys need to vent what they can do in some bands that inspire a better and more vast display of their drumming ability. Dave weckl does kinda but falls back on very generic jazz fusion structures and mike mangini played for annihlator and in terms of drumming, that band requires basic basic stuff, also thomas lang has released one solo album that i cant get hold of, its sad to think that the most we will hear is from drummers like mike portnoy who is brave enough to get really avant garde with standard amount taught to him at berklee. pls give some intelligent reasons for this

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These drummers are practicing the first law of musicianship: 'Play for the music first'. They are technically capable, therefore in the right setting, I'm sure you'd see them 'blowing chops', if that's what you're ultimately looking for.

You said, "Dave weckl does kinda but falls back on very generic jazz fusion structures". That's a pretty brazen and critical comment to make considering he's one of the more advanced and technically proficient drummers of our time. And his execution is flawless. I sure hope you can play exactly like him. Otherwise I don't think you have the right to make such a stupid comment, conveniently ommiting his technical mastery on the kit and that fact that he significantly changed the world of drumming forever.

You strike me as young, inexperienced, and a bit naive. Especially because of the fact that you don't seem to know where to go to be inspired. There are literally "thousands" of albums out there with drummers 'blowing chops' for days. Check out stuff by Tony Williams, Vinnie Coluaita, Marco Minneman, Jack Dejohnette, Joey Baron, Dennis Chambers, Buddy Rich, Steve Gadd, JoJo Meyer, Billy Kilson, Chad Wackerman, Gary Novak, Mike Clark, Simon Phillips, Virgil Donati, Terry Bozzio, Brian Blade, Akira Jimbo, Joey Heredia, Peter Erskine, Roy Haynes, Steve Smith, Rodney Holmes, Paul Motian, Joey Baron, Horatio Hernandez, Elvin Jones, ...and more.

The best thing you can do for yourself is check your ego at the door. Stop pretending to know something that you don't, and start LISTENING to those that do.

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Originally Posted by drummer

These drummers are practicing the first law of musicianship: 'Play for the music first'. They are technically capable, therefore in the right setting, I'm sure you'd see them 'blowing chops', if that's what you're ultimately looking for.

You said, "Dave weckl does kinda but falls back on very generic jazz fusion structures". That's a pretty brazen and critical comment to make considering he's one of the more advanced and technically proficient drummers of our time. And his execution is flawless.

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drummer, The first law of musicianship you listed is SOOO TRUE!! EVERYTHING revolves around that first law - like the planets around the sun.

Regarding what you said about Dave Weckl - just listen to "Taboo" and "Trigger Happy" (and read the notes about Trigger Happy) off of the Heads Up album, and that justifies those comments!!!

Now, with the comments that progmuso made, he must be someone you listed in those names, or he never plays outside his own home. If he did, he would be on every cover and in every magazine that deals with drumming....

heh...i feel really stupid now... i only knew Four of the names Drummer listed...Mike Portnoy, Dennis Chambers, Steve Smith, and Buddy Rich well, i knew some of the others im just not to familiar with them ...>.<!

You said, "Dave weckl does kinda but falls back on very generic jazz fusion structures". That's a pretty brazen and critical comment to make considering he's one of the more advanced and technically proficient drummers of our time. And his execution is flawless. I sure hope you can play exactly like him. Otherwise I don't think you have the right to make such a stupid comment, conveniently ommiting his technical mastery on the kit and that fact that he significantly changed the world of drumming forever.

You strike me as young, inexperienced, and a bit naive. Especially because of the fact that you don't seem to know where to go to be inspired. There are literally "thousands" of albums out there with drummers 'blowing chops' for days. Check out stuff by Tony Williams, Vinnie Coluaita, Marco Minneman, Jack Dejohnette, Joey Baron, Dennis Chambers, Buddy Rich, Steve Gadd, JoJo Meyer, Billy Kilson, Chad Wackerman, Gary Novak, Mike Clark, Simon Phillips, Virgil Donati, Terry Bozzio, Brian Blade, Akira Jimbo, Joey Heredia, Peter Erskine, Roy Haynes, Steve Smith, Rodney Holmes, Paul Motian, Joey Baron, Horatio Hernandez, Elvin Jones, ...and more.


ok tom, i at no point denied anyone's profficiency, dave weckl is brilliant but that doesnt change the fact that the song structures are nothing new to jazz fusion, thanks for the insults, im not about to engage in a flamewar with someone who knows nothing about my drumming capabilities, thank you to who ever posted the first thread who listened to what i was asking for, i did mention that i'm not asking for these guys to blow chops in those particular bands, but to vent their musical abilities in seperate ones

*meekly offers progmuso a slightly used "I luv keytars" t-shirt as a peace offering*

i wouldnt take that ..he had to wear it for two weeks in a tragic twisting of a wish...

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Originally Posted by progmuso

ok tom, i at no point denied anyone's profficiency,

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Actually you did, in 3 separate statements:
1. "...and dave weckl ...but it seems that these drummers never actually go much further then doing the necessary in bands."
2. "...but come on, these guys need to vent what they can do in some bands that inspire a better and more vast display of their drumming ability"
3. Dave weckl does kinda but falls back on very generic jazz fusion structures.

And then your final riduculous statement:
"its sad to think that the most we will hear is from drummers like mike portnoy who is brave enough to get really avant garde with standard amount taught to him at berklee."

What, are you kidding?!!! So you think Mike Portnoy is "avant garde", but Weckl "falls back on very generic jazz fusion structures." ?
Give me a break! You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

By the way. I'm usually a lot nicer than this. But you're insulting the intelligence of those in this board that know better. I can tolerate those that simply don't know and want to learn but I can't tolerate those that act like they know things but are really "full of it".

Now... you've just stated, "im not about to engage in a flamewar with someone who knows nothing about my drumming capabilities". First of all; this isn't a flamewar. This was my opinion. Secondly; what do you have to back that up? What makes you think that I don't have those "drumming capabilities"?

sorry to bring this back but i was looking at it and... the faact that they have that disipline makes them even better. i was thinking about discipline in drumming and i was bored and saw this... so do u guys agree that discipline is a good thing or bad? i think its good as a drummer is a musician and needs to play like a muciscian... even peart can play a song where he justs keeps time... i tthink this brings up some good points... what do you guys think?

Discipline is an absolute necessity. Having great chops doesn't mean that you're going to exhibit them in everything you play. You go to any drum clinic by a big name drummer and you'll see things that they never do with their bands.....very simply because the music doesn't call for it. They know how to accentuate and enhance the music, without being flamboyant.

It's all about being a musician, not showing what you can do to impress people.

My opinion of course. :icon_mrgreen:

I sort of understood what the initial post was about and, I confess, I used to think something of the same. Buddy Rich was probaly one of the few you could count on hearing play his limit all of the time. I would get recordings of all the greats and usually be disappointed in that I didn't hear as much from the drummers as I thought I would. But, I was young and naive and didn't understand the theory and structure of music. I learned and I learned that discipline is the single most attribute that relates directly to the longevity of any Artist. Because of what I learned, I can enjoy myself immensely today playing with my band and helping each of them to play their best. BTW, I thought I was straight forward and pulled no punches. Let me say that I'm glad I wasn't on the receiving end of what Tom had to say. good for you, Tom.

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Originally Posted by Norske

Discipline is an absolute necessity. Having great chops doesn't mean that you're going to exhibit them in everything you play. You go to any drum clinic by a big name drummer and you'll see things that they never do with their bands.....very simply because the music doesn't call for it. They know how to accentuate and enhance the music, without being flamboyant.

It's all about being a musician, not showing what you can do to impress people.

My opinion of course. :icon_mrgreen:

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You said it all, Norske...just because you can do the flamboyant stuff doesn't mean you have to do it all the time...believe it or not, 99 percent of the time, drummers do the simple stuff no one else notices--unless they screw it up big-time and everyone notices! And that's the time you don't want to be noticed!

you can have the chops but they must to have feel to win me

i agree that discipline is important. i think sometime the disciplled drummer is better than the showoffy drummer. this brings up and interesting debate dosent it? and i like how ficobaz said he used to have that menatality... its interesting how our stlye changes.

Just a thought. in two of my last three auditions, I was told at just afterwards, "We like what you did, we'll keep you on file, but we've gone with **** at the moment, (The guy showing his flashy chops.) Two weeks later, I got the call, "Andy, can you join us, the other guy can't play in time and won't just groove when we need him to." In both cases I did, one was a residency that lasted 5 years, and the other was for a cruise band that took me all round the world.

Not 100% sure this is totally relevant, but it sort of fits the topic somewhere.

Andy

I think everyone here has a good point in what they were saying, and I'm somewhere in the middle of it. No, you can't go all out all the time showing off everything you've got back to back for the entire duration of every song. No, I don't think most of the "best drummers" that I've heard do enough within the limits of being musical about it, considering their capabilities. Of course you can always have the argument of if you can't do it in songs then why do it at all... fun or solos, but is that really necessary for everyone else? Not really.

My final though is: I don't listen to all the guys that have been listed on this thread, and I do think a few more could be listed in this thread. Of the guys I listen to, I don't think all of them are playing to their capability within good musical taste. There a re few that do, but I think more people could do so as well.

I think Tom's intial point is really a good one. New players overplay. I did it, we all do it, and it seems impressive. (I still overplay to some extent cause I can't help myself).

Some of you know I'm a teacher and my band does a charity concert with kids performing each year. This year I'm letting a kid other than my son play, and my drums no less. He's only been playing like half a year and he has some natural talent. Unfortunately, he's really loud and overplays. He's starting to take advice. But, the other kids notice his playing.

In contrast, my son is anti-flashy in everything he does. He doesn't brag or show off in school, doesn't really talk about the fact that he plays multiple instruments, etc... My kid happens to be a decent drummer for his age, no prodigy or anything, but if he keeps going he'll be solid as an adult. Unfortunately he goes unnoticed because he doesn't do tons of fills or play really loud. He's playing harder stuff than the other kid, but trying to play it clean.

It's unfortunate that most people take style over substance. There's even the split between technique and art. Mike Portnoy is just crazy to watch sometimes, but I saw a youtube video of him soloing at NAMM and wasn't that amazed. It was fast, etc.., but I didn't find it nearly as interesting as NP's solos.

if u wanna see some awesome refreshing drumming style look at tomas from meshuggah im in love with this guy
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BatXT196-Qw"]YouTube - TOMAS HAAKE AT DRUMMERLIVE 2006 HQ PT. 1[/ame]

Think of it this way, if these guys couldn't play well in a band context, we wouldn't know who they are and they wouldn't be "the best drummers in the world".

That said, Keith Moon is completely crazy, but completely amazing, so if you're looking at something to marvel at, watch The Who.

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Originally Posted by keysanddrums

Think of it this way, if these guys couldn't play well in a band context, we wouldn't know who they are and they wouldn't be "the best drummers in the world".

That said, Keith Moon is completely crazy, but completely amazing, so if you're looking at something to marvel at, watch The Who.

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That's what I mean by *not getting the Moon thing*..I don't see amazing when I see him, and how he's a *legend* is beyond me. All a matter of opinion I guess.

Listen to some Niacin

Ah yes I love Meshuggah!

I'm trying to make a poster of Tomas, with information and pictures.

this thread just came outta no where huh?


I wish I could employ the same raising the dead abilities to my love life.......

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Originally Posted by Northern Redneck

Listen to some Niacin

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I don't mind nutri-grain, but I generally don't eat cereal