vintage 1961 ludwig piccolo a tough egg to crack

Hi all. i was lucky enough to inherit a 1961 Champagne Sparkle Ludwig Piccolo from a relative at the age of ten. All original heads hardware and snare wires. everything is old. Me however, being a ten year old with no knowledge of drums whatsoever at the time, thought it was a really lame and dirty piece of garbage that didnt sound all that great and didnt look much better. well as i grew up got into a band and learned my trade i realized it was a relic and polished everything up got some new heads, snare wires and the whole package ya know. I thought, "its a piccolo, crank dat mofo for dayz and you'll get a great sound." That's what i did and i was right. i used it for several shows getting compliments everywhere i went on how lively and big it sounded. really great. then i ran into some rough economic times and was looking into selling it (stupid me) i came across someone saying that one should NEVER tune that drum tightly because of the lug design. The tension rods go into the same lug but at different spots. The high stress would supposedly cause some damage to the lugs and sure enough after hearing this i immediately went to check on the drum and sure enough when you take a close look at it the lugs which were completely horizontal had slightly rotated in the direction the tension rods were pulling. ever so slightly. i loosedned it up and it went away but damn it just sounds so flat and dead now. the more i think of that paradigm the more i think its a useless drum because it only sounds good cranked but also gets damaged cranked. any thoughts, questions, ideas on what i could do? i'll get a pic up realllllll soon for ya'll:think::think:

Maybe going to some specific brand or style of head will allow you to get the sound you want without so much tension?? Just speculating.....

right now there's a coated emperor x on it i figure it's probably a bit too thick for a piccolo. i'd go for an ambassador but i'm a fairly heavy hitter. so i might try an emperor.

http://drumsandvocals.com/wp-content...x13piccolo.jpg

those lugs are notorious for bending out of place

Heavy hitter, little drum = not good lol.
I can see how the lug may go out of place cranked too tight.
If it's a 4x14", 8 lug, I believe it's considered a Ludwig Downbeat snare. Beautiful drum.
If it's a 3x13", 6 lug, I believe considered a Ludwig Jazz Combo snare.
Sounds like the holes of the lugs have opened up a little from constant pressure.
I'm not sure what may remedy the problem you speak of without custom reinforcement somehow?
I picture two lug holes for each lug, fastened with washers and hex headed screws.
Maybe a long metal washer (strip piece of metal with two holes in it to line up with the lugs screw holes) to cover
the length and a little beyond both lug holes of each lug inside the drum, then lock washers and the screws?
Basically something like this instead of the two regular washers:
It may be good to knurl up the bottom of the strip of metal also so it can seat into the wood a little for stronger support.

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps6fb3505a.jpg

Maybe even small holed but larger washers, knurled on the bottom with lock washers and the screws.

Also, hard to find lugs like those would cost approx. $25 a piece for replacement if needed.
I'd hate to experiment on such a nice drum. Hope a solution can be attained.

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l...pse4882316.jpg

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps24a6292e.jpg

Just guessing here but if the tension is the same for each rod, wouldn't that equalize the pull, cancel out the rotation?

Instead of fabricating something like I was thinking above, I think these other types of washers may work very well as an easier option...
I think I like the big one on the left with the shark tooth Jaws approach.
Of couse you need to find one where the hole size is very close to the screw/bolt size and may need to purchase longer screws/bolts.
Internal tooth (not pictured), external tooth or serrated style locking washers:

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l...pseaf9f292.jpg

i had one like this, the lugs being the same shape though open and when unscrewed a small brass square could be removed from the top or bottom. anyone know what im taking aboot?

I have no answer to this problem, but I would gladly hear the burden of owning this drum, if the burden becomes unbearable.

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Originally Posted by slinglander

Just guessing here but if the tension is the same for each rod, wouldn't that equalize the pull, cancel out the rotation?

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Good observation!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slinglander

Just guessing here but if the tension is the same for each rod, wouldn't that equalize the pull, cancel out the rotation?

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If you pull equally hard on both tension rods, it will pull equally hard both ends of the lug, tilting it (when too tight). The rods or portions of the lug that insert into the drums holes, each end of the lug supported only by one washer and a screw, are possibly opening up the holes somewhat from the tension. One tension rod pulls one end of the lug down and the other end gets pulled up. So technically "any" tension will start wanting to rotate this lug. I think a happy medium between tight and too tight needs to be met along with some good reinforcement.

I'm not certain exactly what the inside of the lug really looks like or if there are actually swival nuts and supports like this crude drawing but just trying to show where the high tension probably is located. Hope you can work something out to help it from twisting that lug too much on a nice drum.

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps4014e45b.jpg

found pics of a couple Tama's with similar issues because of this lug design:

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps3c88c05a.jpg

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps8af07721.jpg

Also found a pic of what looks like a good solution if you have the hole spacing.

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l...psbc17b8b3.jpg

I guess I'm done responding in this thread now...lol.
It did actually help me learn a couple things in the obsession..I mean process.
Best of luck, j bonturkey.

^ All that info you provided Oli is something well worth considering if and when I'd eventually come across such a Ludwig piccolo. Cheers for that!

maybe someone can give me clue on the piccolo's.. never had or used one..what main type of music would you need one? once again in the quest to learn, "as you can teach an old dog new sticks"

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Originally Posted by Drumbledore

^ All that info you provided Oli is something well worth considering if and when I'd eventually come across such a Ludwig piccolo. Cheers for that!

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Thank you Drumbledore

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Originally Posted by MartyM

maybe someone can give me clue on the piccolo's.. never had or used one..what main type of music would you need one? once again in the quest to learn, "as you can teach an old dog new sticks"

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Hi Marty, IMO, what is a snare but that cracking sound you get from hitting it? You can use it for a variety of styles or maybe as a side snare..etc. I guess it depends on what one may prefer their sound to be. Here's a vid of a Ludwig Downbeat snare in action.

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Originally Posted by Olimpass

Thank you Drumbledore



Hi Marty, IMO, what is a snare but that cracking sound you get from hitting it? You can use it for a variety of styles or maybe as a side snare..etc. I guess it depends on what one may prefer their sound to be. Here's a vid of a Ludwig Downbeat snare in action.

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thanks Olimpass for the vid...now correct me if i am wrong..don't most here on the chat use a piccolo to the left of high hat ( right handed drummer that is )? I have seen this alot here and just was curious as that sound from video can be had by most reg. snares with a high tunning. thanks for listening

Marty, some drummers though do use a piccolo as a main snare. It just all depends on the individual drummer, maybe their influences, and what's seen as fashionable or not. I can remember years and years back it seemed like everyone I knew wanted to get their hands on a brass piccolo snare, and to crank it tight....so high and thin it used to sound like a toothpick snapping, I've heard someone say, lol. In some cases they'd go through all that and then roll in a whole heap of bottom end and mids on the mic just to add a bit of depth (making you wonder why did they go through all that trouble in the first place?) Basically, people were just following a particular trend when it came to that. Then, all of a sudden, people then got into revisting slightly deeper wood snares, and all of a sudden I'd open the pages of the Trading Post or other newspapers and mags and see dozens of brass piccolos being sold second-hand. Or people looking to trade a brass one for a wooden one. It was just one of those things.

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Originally Posted by MartyM

thanks Olimpass for the vid...now correct me if i am wrong..don't most here on the chat use a piccolo to the left of high hat ( right handed drummer that is )? I have seen this alot here and just was curious as that sound from video can be had by most reg. snares with a high tunning. thanks for listening

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Marty, I couldn't correct you but I do believe you are correct!..lol.
Usually, it's a snare smaller than the main. Like a piccolo or a popcorn snare. Why not be different and make it a field drum or something? My input would be, it's up for grabs. Do something unique to you. I believe the greatest drummers are just that because of something unique. Excuse me while I go and try to practice what I preach...lol. :boom-crash:

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Originally Posted by Drumbledore

I can remember years and years back it seemed like everyone I knew wanted to get their hands on a brass piccolo snare, and to crank it tight....so high and thin it used to sound like a toothpick snapping, I've heard someone say, lol. In some cases they'd go through all that and then roll in a whole heap of bottom end and mids on the mic just to add a bit of depth (making you wonder why did they go through all that trouble in the first place?) Basically, people were just following a particular trend when it came to that. Then, all of a sudden, people then got into revisting slightly deeper wood snares, and all of a sudden I'd open the pages of the Trading Post or other newspapers and mags and see dozens of brass piccolos being sold second-hand. Or people looking to trade a brass one for a wooden one. It was just one of those things.

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Actually seeing a lot of piccolo's people are letting go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drumbledore

Marty, some drummers though do use a piccolo as a main snare. It just all depends on the individual drummer, maybe their influences, and what's seen as fashionable or not. I can remember years and years back it seemed like everyone I knew wanted to get their hands on a brass piccolo snare, and to crank it tight....so high and thin it used to sound like a toothpick snapping, I've heard someone say, lol. In some cases they'd go through all that and then roll in a whole heap of bottom end and mids on the mic just to add a bit of depth (making you wonder why did they go through all that trouble in the first place?) Basically, people were just following a particular trend when it came to that. Then, all of a sudden, people then got into revisting slightly deeper wood snares, and all of a sudden I'd open the pages of the Trading Post or other newspapers and mags and see dozens of brass piccolos being sold second-hand. Or people looking to trade a brass one for a wooden one. It was just one of those things.

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I have been using a 3x13 steel pacific as my main snare for a bit. Idk man, I just like high and tight snares.
And, I would eat raw onions (my most hated food) for 3.5x14 brass snare a la Garibaldi

well cranked the snare is just about the best thing i have ever heard. ever. my band recorded one track with it and it was reminiscent of a bonham track. it looks exactly like that champaign sparkle one that someone posted earlier. i would do the two lugs side by side design if it wasn't vintage. i actually recently bought a tama superstar and with it came a 6.5x14 birch snare and i couldn't believe how ridiculously good it sounds. it came with a coated pinstripe and clear amb witha tama 42 strand wire and dear god is it sweet. i have a 5.5x14 ludwig acrolite that i use too so i guess i'll just keep the piccolo as a relic until i maybe have more money in my later years to spiff it up as i am a poor 18 year old musician now trying to complete a k cymbal set