Song structure

[Doc_d]

My drum teacher has me learning "Rikki don't lose that number" by Steely Dan. I went about it from the approach of learning it note for note from start to finish.

With my skill level, the complexity of the piece and the time I had to work on it, I obviously didn't play it well when I went into my lesson.

So he told me I need to approach songs by understanding the song structure and the basic grooves in each section and then later to worry about how they get tied together with fills and embelleshments. So he told me for this week to just work on understanding the song structure and playing the basic feel through the different sections.

Here's the song:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbIIwH9VsjM"]YouTube - Rikki Don't Lose That Number - Steely Dan[/ame]

Below is how I originally had it.

Intro		00:00 - 00:25 	11 measures (hard to count it)
Verse		00:25 - 01:09	21 measures
Chorus		01:09 - 01:40	15 measures
Verse		01:40 - 02:19	19 measures
Chorus		02:19 - 02:50	15 measures
Solo		02:50 - 03:45   27 measures
Chorus		03:45 - 04:15   15 measures
Coda		04:15 - 04:29 	6  measures

But now I'm questioning the sections from 00:25 - 00:38 (6 measures), 01:40 - 01:48 (4 measures) and 02:50 - 02:58 (4 measures). I'm including those sections as part of the verses and solo. But now I'm suspecting those might be bridges. So if that's the case it would look like this. Is this more accurate?

Intro		00:00 - 00:25 	11 measures (hard to count it)
Bridge  	00:25 - 00:38   6  measures
Verse		00:38 - 01:09	15 measures
Chorus		01:09 - 01:40	15 measures
Bridge  	01:40 - 01:48   4  measures
Verse		01:48 - 02:19	15 measures
Chorus		02:19 - 02:50	15 measures
Bridge  	02:50 - 02:58	4  measures
Solo		02:58 - 03:45   23 measures
Chorus		03:45 - 04:15   15 measures
Coda		04:15 - 04:29 	6  measures

Lastly I have a question about the solo from 02:57 - 03:44 (23 measures). Is that whole section the solo or would this be more accurate?

Solo		02:58 - 03:31   16 measures
PreChorus	03:31 - 03:45   7  measures

I know I'm probaby splitting hairs on this stuff, but I like to make sure that I have a good understanding of this foundational type stuff.

Thanks!
Doc

[late8]

I counted it and found the second notation easier to count the measures.

Intro 00:00 - 00:25 11 measures (hard to count it)
Bridge 00:25 - 00:38 6 measures
Verse 00:38 - 01:09 15 measures
Chorus 01:09 - 01:40 15 measures
Bridge 01:40 - 01:48 4 measures
Verse 01:48 - 02:19 15 measures
Chorus 02:19 - 02:50 15 measures
Bridge 02:50 - 02:58 4 measures
Solo 02:58 - 03:45 23 measures
Chorus 03:45 - 04:15 15 measures
Coda 04:15 - 04:29 6 measures

I also found this measure count to be accurate and easier to follow:

Solo 02:58 - 03:31 16 measures
PreChorus 03:31 - 03:45 7 measures

[nio]

Doc, I would scrap counting of measures....its only good if you're actually transcribing the drum notation. I would recommend concentrating on the structure of the song:

Intro
V
C
V - with a lead-in
C
B - with a lead-in, then guitar solo
V
C
ending

In my experience, you have to begin using your ear to recognize where you are in the song and also to anticipate where the song is going. It will become very easy for you to feel the section changes. Perhaps this is where your teacher is going with this lesson. Good luck !

[kaosotis]

I'm with Nio. I think knowing the structure of the song in terms of verses, chorus, bridge is the best way to a learn a song. If there are specific beats, grooves, etc... in one part you learn that, but it's the general changes that are the best way to go.

[fumbled time]

This is the info I was looking for in a thread I started. It's not what you ask but how you ask it. Thanks fellas. F/T

[xsabers]

I used to play this song in a band and I never counted out the bars BUT, here is something you can grab onto I hope.

The intro doesn't seem to have a meter, I wouldn't even count that part.

Ok the real intro is a simple 6 bar phrase.

Verses are 3 groups of 4 bars, plus that signature 3 bar transition that ends with the solo piano on the last bar.

Choruses are an 8-bar phrase, then a 6-bar phrase, + 1-bar transition ("When you get home")

Instrumental break between Chorus and Verse is 4-bars

The gtr lead is two 8-bar phrases.

Bridge is 4-bars, plus the quirky 3 bars that's normally at the end of each verse.


Even though this is Steely Dan, there are definite patterns that make total sense. Just take it in small bites. The groupings of 4, 6, or 8 bars are pretty easy to feel. Good luck. This is a great song and lots of fun to play.

[Doc_d]

Thanks guys this has been a great help. This is a pretty exciting revelation for me as it really seems to simplify how I think about a song.

In my experience, you have to begin using your ear to recognize where you are in the song and also to anticipate where the song is going. It will become very easy for you to feel the section changes. Perhaps this is where your teacher is going with this lesson. Good luck !

That's exactly what he's trying to get me to do. Being the right brained engineering type I saw the song as a long string of notes. I was really struggling with knowing exactly where I was and what was coming next.

I used to play this song in a band and I never counted out the bars BUT, here is something you can grab onto I hope.

The intro doesn't seem to have a meter, I wouldn't even count that part.

Ok the real intro is a simple 6 bar phrase.

Verses are 3 groups of 4 bars, plus that signature 3 bar transition that ends with the solo piano on the last bar.

Choruses are an 8-bar phrase, then a 6-bar phrase, + 1-bar transition ("When you get home")

Instrumental break between Chorus and Verse is 4-bars

The gtr lead is two 8-bar phrases.

Bridge is 4-bars, plus the quirky 3 bars that's normally at the end of each verse.


Even though this is Steely Dan, there are definite patterns that make total sense. Just take it in small bites. The groupings of 4, 6, or 8 bars are pretty easy to feel. Good luck. This is a great song and lots of fun to play.

XSabers - this is great thanks. I think I was struggling a little with the little 4 bar "instrumental break" because it really didn't seem to fit neatly into the category of verse or chorus. I was calling that a bridge which based on your description is probably not correct.

It also really helps to see that you feel the chorus as an 8 bar section and an 6 bar section. I didn't write it out that way because I knew the whole thing was technically the chorus but also knew that it changes after the 8th bar.

[Wavelength]

Doc, I would scrap counting of measures....its only good if you're actually transcribing the drum notation. I would recommend concentrating on the structure of the song.

In my experience, you have to begin using your ear to recognize where you are in the song and also to anticipate where the song is going. It will become very easy for you to feel the section changes. Perhaps this is where your teacher is going with this lesson. Good luck !

I'd say counting measures is of paramount importance if the song's sections aren't divided into easily felt 4, 8, 12 or 16 bar phrases. Later, when the song becomes more familiar you'll be able to remember and feel the odd phrasings, but you'll just have to count before that happens.

I'm a working musician and I'm constantly "fake-transcribing" songs which are unfamiliar to me. I wouldn't be able to perform these songs after listening to them once or twice if I didn't count and write down the amount of measures and the occasional time signature changes.

[kaosotis]

I'd say counting measures is of paramount importance if the song's sections aren't divided into easily felt 4, 8, 12 or 16 bar phrases. Later, when the song becomes more familiar you'll be able to remember and feel the odd phrasings, but you'll just have to count before that happens.

I'm a working musician and I'm constantly "fake-transcribing" songs which are unfamiliar to me. I wouldn't be able to perform these songs after listening to them once or twice if I didn't count and write down the amount of measures and the occasional time signature changes.

And yet I never write out anything. I just listen and play it. Just takes a lot of listening and repetition. Then again, the whole band learns that way, and we aren't super concerned with getting it exact, which makes it easier. Frequently we change around songs a little to suit our tastes.

[late8]

And yet I never write out anything. I just listen and play it. Just takes a lot of listening and repetition. Then again, the whole band learns that way, and we aren't super concerned with getting it exact, which makes it easier. Frequently we change around songs a little to suit our tastes.

I find this works well for me too.

[xsabers]

Yeah, I sometimes play songs wrong too...

[Wavelength]

And yet I never write out anything. I just listen and play it. Just takes a lot of listening and repetition. Then again, the whole band learns that way, and we aren't super concerned with getting it exact, which makes it easier. Frequently we change around songs a little to suit our tastes.

That's cool if you have a lot of time and you know you'll play the song again and again and again. I may need to be able to go to a cover gig and play twenty songs I've never heard before, and writing down a quick road map for each song is the only way I could realistically pull it off. Sometimes there's just no time to learn and memorise the songs you need to play -- you just have to read them.

[fumbled time]

Not a bad read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_st...popular_music)

[Scottie_Guns]

I'm with Wavelength when I'm in a similar situation. Lots of songs, not much time to "absorb" them.

But I more often do it the other way when I'm dealing with a new cover song or learning originals (I haven't played in a cover band since 2003 or so).

That's cool if you have a lot of time and you know you'll play the song again and again and again. I may need to be able to go to a cover gig and play twenty songs I've never heard before, and writing down a quick road map for each song is the only way I could realistically pull it off. Sometimes there's just no time to learn and memorise the songs you need to play -- you just have to read them.

[Drumbledore]

I'd say counting measures is of paramount importance if the song's sections aren't divided into easily felt 4, 8, 12 or 16 bar phrases. Later, when the song becomes more familiar you'll be able to remember and feel the odd phrasings, but you'll just have to count before that happens.

I'm a working musician and I'm constantly "fake-transcribing" songs which are unfamiliar to me. I wouldn't be able to perform these songs after listening to them once or twice if I didn't count and write down the amount of measures and the occasional time signature changes.

Whether you meticulously transcribe every fill and section and read it off your music stand or just through sheer repetition and hitting the repeat button on your iPod or CD player, I'd say every method mentioned is valid if it works for you. After all, I rarely see enough ethnic and traditional percussionists write down their complex rhythms (in fact, a tabla student is required to learn the Hindi language in order to memorise a staggering amount of structure within a piece). But I'm like Wavelength, if it isn't a "foursquare" (ie: phrases divided in lots of four in an even meter) and when they add those pesky time signature changes....you don't have to be a theoretical geek...but you can for example write "CH: 4//4, 4/4, 4/4, 3/4" to remind you that your first line of the chorus has an odd count on the fourth bar. I'll write a little "x" with a circle above the first 4/4 to tell me that crash is right at the beginning....simple stuff like that...then stick that A4 paper on a music stand......but yes, I do read notation fairly well...this is just a form of "shorthand" when writing stuff and putting it quickly together in bands.