Update to Forum Rules / Everyone Please Read

[su_admin]

Ladies and gentleman, DrumChat is drawing a lot of vintage parties lately and we've had problems with certain people using this site as an indirect means to sell. In an attempt to deter commercial selling we are closing some threads that hone in on the the vintage drum market. We appreciate that this may upset some people but we ask for your understanding as we continually seek to maintain a balance in this forum.

We have amended the rules to include language about vintage drum discussion. If vintage drum dealers wish to advertise on this forum, please contact Drum Bum at mail@drumbum.com.

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Selling / Trading:
At this time, selling or trading personal property is not allowed within Drum Chat, including PM's (private messaging). This includes posting links to property on eBay, Craigslist or similar websites. We also discourage posts that ask, "What is my _____ worth?" (or similar) as this is a way to get around the "no selling" rule. We also discourage heavy vintage drum discussion and links to vintage drum guides as sellers frequently use forums to mask their commercial enterprise. At the moderator's discretion, these types of posts might be removed. Anyone using this forum for commercial purpose without permission will be banned indefinitely.

[MR. G]

sounds resonable...I don't understand some of the reasoning but then again I don't make the rules..... AND as a priveledged member I should follow them. Are any of these items up for debate ? I often wonder what sparks such controversy.

[Russ]

Can't discuss vintage drums at all? Or just talk about where to find them, or anything that suggests trading or selling happening via pm's? I've taken an interest in them and find that I have a question or two on them from time to time from more qualified experts. For me the appeal is not so much that i'd want to buy something from a member here so much as gain insight into the history, workings, and stuff I need to know when independently shopping for them on my own. Things like what era had the best hardware/sound- what to look for and what to avoid, things like that nature tend to interest me. Just wondered.

[Tadman]

Same thoughts as Russ, above (+1)

[drumsetsnide]

Can't discuss vintage drums at all? Or just talk about where to find them, or anything that suggests trading or selling happening via pm's? I've taken an interest in them and find that I have a question or two on them from time to time from more qualified experts. For me the appeal is not so much that i'd want to buy something from a member here so much as gain insight into the history, workings, and stuff I need to know when independently shopping for them on my own. Things like what era had the best hardware/sound- what to look for and what to avoid, things like that nature tend to interest me. Just wondered.

Russ, I was having a very nice discussion on a thread I started about my vintage kit in regards to the very things you were talking about-era/year, hardware and how to find out how to get that kind of info, and the thread was closed.

Nobody posted anything about the worth of the kit, nor was there any reference of that nature, any links (private or commercial) to any sites or products dealing with vintage kits/hardware. Nobody, including myself, posted any services and nobody tried to buy or sell anything, nor was there any reference to buying or selling.

I did post the name of the kit and a description (nothing wrong there) along with model and serial numbers of the drums and hardware (nothing wrong there). The last two posts in that thread, where I posted the model and serial numbers and a description of the drums and hardware, were deleted and the thread was closed.


As per the amendment to the rules under the "Trading/Selling" heading, I cannot see where I was in violation as this thread was started long before the rules were changed and not in violation of the previous rule.

The new rule says no heavy discussion about vintage drums/hardware. So my question is what is considered heavy? This is a drum forum and there is heavy discussion about all things related to drums and drumming and very specific discussions all the time about specific products. Old drums are still drums.

Guess I am confused as well.

[kaosotis]

I'm not one to question rules on DC and I don't usually discuss vintage drums, but I have to agree that the "heavy discussion" part is kind of vague. Like the others, I think we could use some clarification so we don't inadvertently cause trouble.

[drummer]

Can't discuss vintage drums at all? Or just talk about where to find them, or anything that suggests trading or selling happening via pm's? I've taken an interest in them and find that I have a question or two on them from time to time from more qualified experts. For me the appeal is not so much that i'd want to buy something from a member here so much as gain insight into the history, workings, and stuff I need to know when independently shopping for them on my own. Things like what era had the best hardware/sound- what to look for and what to avoid, things like that nature tend to interest me. Just wondered.

Russ, selling/trading has never been allowed, even through PM. After discussing this with admin, I can appreciate their position. They're not trying to ban discussion on vintage drums but they also don't want it to be highlighted throughout the forum with dedicated threads and buying guides and so forth as it was attracting vintage sellers. These sellers/buyers don't have a free pass to use this forum for their masked commercial interests anymore than a drum store that would come in here to answer questions about drums with the motive of landing a drumset sale.

[drummer]

I'm not one to question rules on DC and I don't usually discuss vintage drums, but I have to agree that the "heavy discussion" part is kind of vague. Like the others, I think we could use some clarification so we don't inadvertently cause trouble.

I understand the vagueness thing. I think it's admin's way of saying, we don't want to get in the way of normal drum discussion but we don't want threads dedicated to vintage and buying guides and so forth because it draws the sellers. I don't think it's realistic to say, "you can't say anything about a vintage drum" but it might be fair to say, "let's keep it to a minimum".

I've been here since the beginning and I've never seen a huge interest in vintage in here anyway so it shouldn't be that far out of the ordinary with this modification.

[Riouel]

I'm not one to question rules on DC and I don't usually discuss vintage drums, but I have to agree that the "heavy discussion" part is kind of vague. Like the others, I think we could use some clarification so we don't inadvertently cause trouble.

+1 here

i agree on hide some seeling stuff in pm that you could be banned

We also discourage heavy vintage drum discussion

for discussion you have to be very clear if we can't talk about vintage or new stuff why this forum exist ??????

i would like to ear some reply with example from you ( su_adm)

[ThePloughman]

Apparently several threads were closed.
The only thread closed with a special message in regards to selling was my own ThePloughmans Rogers thread. That message could only be interpreted as I was using this site to run offsite commerce. I have never done that. I have never even come close to that. I sent a PM to the admin concerning the closing thread message and that closing message was removed. Still, it was seemingly directly aimed at myself, and was unfair and unjust. The only drum related item I have sold since being a member here in the past 4 years was my Ayotte custom that was sold locally on that local "list" only selling site. The only drum related item I transferred to another member here was the Acrolite snare drum I gave to another member, for a partial postage cost, and only after asking permission from the mods for that to take place. I am not currently, nor have I in the recent past offered anything for sale on any other drum forum. Dating guides were singled out, not buying guides. I never broke any of the rules, I never even linked Drumchat to my own website. I am not involved in any commercial interest, and have never been in regards to drums.

Information I posted here kept some of you from making bad buying choices. It let others know when their drums were made. It prevented some from buying fake drums, and let others know a drum they had purchased was an impostor. The dating guide was offered totally free, without any condition. But now that isnt welcome.

I also probably wont be posting much here anymore. So, good drumming to you all.
ThePloughman

[drumsetsnide]

Apparently several threads were closed.
The only thread closed with a special message in regards to selling was my own ThePloughmans Rogers thread. That message could only be interpreted as I was using this site to run offsite commerce. I have never done that. I have never even come close to that. I sent a PM to the admin concerning the closing thread message and that closing message was removed. Still, it was seemingly directly aimed at myself, and was unfair and unjust. The only drum related item I have sold since being a member here in the past 4 years was my Ayotte custom that was sold locally on that local "list" only selling site. The only drum related item I transferred to another member here was the Acrolite snare drum I gave to another member, for a partial postage cost, and only after asking permission from the mods for that to take place. I am not currently, nor have I in the recent past offered anything for sale on any other drum forum. Dating guides were singled out, not buying guides. I never broke any of the rules, I never even linked Drumchat to my own website. I am not involved in any commercial interest, and have never been in regards to drums.

Information I posted here kept some of you from making bad buying choices. It let others know when their drums were made. It prevented some from buying fake drums, and let others know a drum they had purchased was an impostor. The dating guide was offered totally free, without any condition. But now that isnt welcome.

I also probably wont be posting much here anymore. So, good drumming to you all.
ThePloughman

Very sorry you are upset. The admin didn't specifically say who they were targeting. But the new rules are the rules. I personally wish they would define what they mean by heavy vintage chat. I like all drums and am now afraid to post anything about vintage stuff because the rule is so vague. For me it is an equally important part of my drumming life as I own both new kits and vintage kits.

But, like I said the rules are the rules and at this point I will refrain from posting anything vintage.

[Dad3353]

There, that's what 'rules' do for you. I trust you will excuse a drop of sarcasm here. I don't play R****s drums, (I'm C***o, myself...), but if this is how you see your forum flourishing, I don't see it being our forum. So be it; I'll be back when The Ploughman is reinstated.
(Damned shame, though...)

[su_admin]

for discussion you have to be very clear if we can't talk about vintage or new stuff why this forum exist ??????

i would like to ear some reply with example from you ( su_adm)

I believe everything was explained. This doesn't have to do with new stuff, it involves vintage drum discussion. I don't have time to list examples. Just post as normal and keep vintage to a minimum.

[su_admin]

Apparently several threads were closed.
The only thread closed with a special message in regards to selling was my own ThePloughmans Rogers thread. That message could only be interpreted as I was using this site to run offsite commerce. I have never done that. I have never even come close to that. I sent a PM to the admin concerning the closing thread message and that closing message was removed. Still, it was seemingly directly aimed at myself, and was unfair and unjust. The only drum related item I have sold since being a member here in the past 4 years was my Ayotte custom that was sold locally on that local "list" only selling site. The only drum related item I transferred to another member here was the Acrolite snare drum I gave to another member, for a partial postage cost, and only after asking permission from the mods for that to take place. I am not currently, nor have I in the recent past offered anything for sale on any other drum forum. Dating guides were singled out, not buying guides. I never broke any of the rules, I never even linked Drumchat to my own website. I am not involved in any commercial interest, and have never been in regards to drums.

Information I posted here kept some of you from making bad buying choices. It let others know when their drums were made. It prevented some from buying fake drums, and let others know a drum they had purchased was an impostor. The dating guide was offered totally free, without any condition. But now that isnt welcome.

I also probably wont be posting much here anymore. So, good drumming to you all.
ThePloughman

I took the time to explain to you via PM that you were not singled out and this wasn't just about you. It is your responsibility to trust me on my word in the same manner that you expected us to trust you that you were not here to sell vintage drums.

Up til this point, you were diplomatic but after your last post where you resorted to calling me names (which I deleted), that is crossing the line.

[su_admin]

There, that's what 'rules' do for you. ... but if this is how you see your forum flourishing, I don't see it being our forum. So be it; I'll be back when The Ploughman is reinstated.
(Damned shame, though...)

Rules are a necessary part of life bud. We knew there would be some fallout over this decision. We ask that people try to understand why we made it but if they disagree, they have the right to leave. Nobody is keeping them here.

What we won't stand for is calling the moderators names on your way out the door as Ploughman decided to do. That gets you banned.

[drumsetsnide]

I believe everything was explained. This doesn't have to do with new stuff, it involves vintage drum discussion. I don't have time to list examples. Just post as normal and keep vintage to a minimum.

With all due respect, not everything was explained in detail. What is considered light verses heavy conversation? Can we start threads about vintage drums/hardware? If not, where and when can we mention vintage drums as we are supposed to stay on topic when posting to threads? Some of my questions may sound ridiculous but if a rule is vague then it leaves room for interpretation and a chance that someone could violate that rule inadvertently.

I had a thread closed that was started several weeks prior to the new rule where I asked for assistance with my vintage kit and had 9 responses 5 of them by me commenting on other members posts in my thread. After reading and re-reading the current rule is that considered "heavy vintage drum discussion" as stated in the rule. Other than that, which is subjective, there were no violations according to the rule, which is really heavy on the selling and trading issue.


I'm under the impression that this is a forum for drums and drummers. Old or vintage drums are drums and there are drummers on here who have vintage stuff. I understand that there are numerous other forums specifically about vintage drums, but I chose DrumChat.

Originally it was to ask for an opinion on a piece of hardware I was purchasing. One thing lead to another and I found myself coming back to DrumChat often, and now daily. I like the variety of knowledge from the experienced drummers and I like the friendly and welcoming attitude that the members have for those new to drumming.


I understand that people may be trying to use this forum for reasons other than to have general and friendly chats about drums and drum related topics and ask questions and for advice and even have fun on off topic threads. However, I find it hard to imagine that there are people only targeting the vintage discussions and that there are not people doing the same with new drums and hardware.

[drummer]

I don't see any problem with the way it is worded but then I'm on the mod side of things so perhaps I can't fully appreciate the need for clarity here. Some people have commented that it's too vague and seem uncertain how to proceed. I can't make any guarantees but I'll discuss this with admin tomorrow and see if maybe there's a better way to approach this new concern.

[Tadman]

Thanks, drummer.

[Russ]

I have faith in both the Administration and the Super Mods for having just cause in making and bringing this rule to light. I am relatively new to the team but I do support and know they would not have made this ruling without the need to do so. Perhaps situations have come up where a few were trying to buy or sell here in a sneaky way, causing things to become slightly more strict in an effort to stop this. I do agree that it's possible and a likely probability that you'll get a few people on any forum trying to buy and sell anything, not just from one corner of the market like vintage is. I'm sad to see Ploughman go like that(I enjoyed his discussions very much), but it sounds to me like he was disrespectful in his dealings with admin and that was a rule broken. I don't fully understand it all yet myself. Of course I know not to discuss or link to commercial things, but there are other non-commercial questions that may be left unanswered. Still, a rule's a rule and I have to follow it the same as anyone else. I'd like to thank anyone and everyone who both understands and respects it. I'd rather not see anyone else leave, so if you haven't re-read the rule page yet now might be a good time to double check the updated version.

[johnl]

Simply put it doesn't seem fair to those of us who are interested in vintage. Vintage or new it's all drumming. Don't think I'll be coming around much anymore.

[Riouel]

I can't make any guarantees but I'll discuss this with admin tomorrow and see if maybe there's a better way to approach this new concern.

thanks tom

i beleve that not selling thing here is ok because drum bum sell some stuff and they have a used section for sell

so if you have something to sell go to drumbum

as for discusion i don't know why we can't discuse with respect vintage drum thing

I don't have time to list examples. talk vintage to a minimum.

this is where i disagree (with respect)
why talk to a minimum of a subject with no intention of selling

i am disapoint to see ThePloughman goes he was M Rogers (my first drum was a Rogers)
maybe he go over the fence on calling name (not respecfull) because he was pist because of vintage rules (to not discuse heavy vintage )(and clarity of the new rules ) because he is M vintage

i see lot of poeple goes (old member) and and lot of new comer
when i come in here Frank was the one who help me alot (RIP brother )
it was a fun place to hang
The Ambiance is not the same anymore

i wish i can go back

so please ADM try to be clear on the new rules to not loose some old member again

thanks all to let me express my feeling

(maybe i (frenchie) make mistake in the way i aproch the subject adm you can send me pm to clarifie the situation)


be safe all

[longgun]

Gonna miss ploughman....enjoyed his detailed Rogers threads......seems like this got out of hand pretty quick.

[drumsetsnide]

I don't see any problem with the way it is worded but then I'm on the mod side of things so perhaps I can't fully appreciate the need for clarity here. Some people have commented that it's too vague and seem uncertain how to proceed. I can't make any guarantees but I'll discuss this with admin tomorrow and see if maybe there's a better way to approach this new concern.

Thank you drummer for looking into this. I'm sure there are many things that happen that the most members may not be aware of or see, especially if things are removed quickly, perhaps even if they are not removed relatively quickly. So I can, to a point, try to understand the situation from the admin point, but to make reference to what you have mentioned, it is hard as I am not a mod or admin, I don't see what they see.

It is in the vagueness of the amended rule, the part about heavy discussion, that I'm not clear and your earlier post commenting on the rule is also slightly confusing. To quote you, "I understand the vagueness thing. I think it's admin's way of saying, we don't want to get in the way of normal drum discussion but we don't want threads dedicated to vintage and buying guides and so forth because it draws the sellers. I don't think it's realistic to say, "you can't say anything about a vintage drum" but it might be fair to say, "let's keep it to a minimum". So, what EXACTLY are you trying to say here? No threads for vintage? Ok. I understand that. But where and when can we, because we are allowed to, mention vintage? Like you said, it isn't a heavy topic on this forum but it does get discussed.

I chose DrumChat for a few reasons. One of them entails several things. Here on DrumChat I, and I'm sure I'm not alone, feel a sense of community, fellowship, friendship, trust, kindness, home and family and DrumChat has personality and character and is very welcoming. I think you would be hard-pressed to find that in any other forum (I certainly did when I spent a few hours looking at different forums-it only took me a few minutes to feel that this was the right place and only a few posts to feel at home).

I will always respect what the mods and admin have to say even if I disagree, which I will always do respectfully, and I will always follow the rules.

Thank you for looking into this.
Again, thank you for looking into this.

[trickg]

It seems to me that a very easy way to get around the "v******" thing is to simply not use the word "v******" - just call them old.

This new rule seems very silly to me. It's like the whole forum is being punished for the actions of a very few people, and the rules are so numerous, vague and arbitrary that before too long it's going to be hard to post much of anything at all without crossing some arbitrary line from a bulky and confusing set of rules.

I mean seriously - you can talk about v****** drums, but the discussion can't get too heavy? That can't be more ambiguous. Who decides when the discussion is getting too heavy? How will we know unless a mod brings down the hammer on a discussion that they arbitrarily decides is getting "too heavy?" And what's our definition of v******? Pre-1990? 1980? 1970? Or is it only relegated to specific brands such as Rogers, Slingerland, or Ludwig?

Help me out with this one: "In an attempt to deter commercial selling we are closing some threads that hone in on the the v****** drum market." Commercial? Is anyone on this forum (other than the forum owners) running an actual business selling any kind of drum gear? Wouldn't the definition of "commercial" in regard to this thread mean someone with a business dedicated to selling and trading v****** drums? Wouldn't it be easier to say something to the effect of, "please don't post links to v****** drum identification guides," and let the discussions go where they go?

Lots of questions, but I fear there will be very few answers.

[drummer]

I talked to admin about this.

The moderators are going to take a common sense approach about this. We don't wish to stifle discussion on vintage drums so don't feel like you can't ever talk about it but we ask that members balance out their posts and not only talk about vintage drums. If a member is talking about nothing but vintage drums after joining this forum, we will ask that he/she will join other discussions in here. If "vintage" is your only interest, perhaps another forum that specializes in vintage drums is a better option for you.

The overall concern with this recent change is that we don't wish to be bait for vintage drum sellers so we don't want numerous threads dedicated to that subject. While we'll allow vintage discussion, we may decide to close some older threads after the discussion has subsided.