Double strokes and dynamics

[Gavagai]

Hi All. First the background: I played many years ago, having been self-taught. I thought I was pretty good, though I was probably atrocious. In middle-age, I've bought myself an electronic kit and a practice pad, amd am attempting to teach myself properly, just as a personal-interest/fun kind of thing (I may get lessons one day, but for now my job is just too hectically busy to allow the time).

Anyways, I'm trying to brush up on and tidy my rudiments. And I have a question about getting even dynamics on a double-stroke roll. I'm not bad at the double stroke roll, but when it gets to a speed where I'm bouncing rather than wristing, I have the impression that the second stroke on each hand is always a bit softer, which makes for uneven dynamics. What's the secret for getting the dynamics even with this rudiment (and indeed, any rudiment that includes doubles)?

I know there is this technique of clasping the fingers after the rebound to force the stick down for the second stroke. I'm trying to learn that, but it's very slow going! And I have heard drummers say that evenness is possible without it (this affable chap, for example:



But how? Any thoughts? Or do I just have to persevere with that finger control?

[kyle102565]

slow down and listen to the music

its all in the wrist, dont be afraid to choke back on your sticks

[signia fan]

I think Tommy Igoe hands for life video explains doubles better than anything I have seen. I am in a similar boat as you, and my double strokes are progressing nicely, but I have put a lot of time and effort doing so. There are lots of tips, so here is mine. Work on triple strokes too, keeping them as even as possible, and then the doubles will seem a little easier in comparison.

[rickthedrummer]

I posted not too long ago on this topic.

Derrik Pope has the right idea. You try to get them as even sounding as possible. As he said, a single stroke roll, a paradiddle, and a double stroke roll would all sound the same if they were perfectly done.

DO NOT go nuts trying to make it perfect, ain't gonna happen. If Rich, Morello, Roach, et al, did not have a perfect double stroke roll, chances are, you won't either.

I try to keep mine as even as I can, that's the best you can try for. I put a video up Christmas night in which I basically did nothing but go from a closed roll to a double stroke role, to paradiddles, and back again. The end result I was OK with,but, when I went from 1 to the other (even with my back to the screen) I knew when I changed what I was doing, and I've been at this for 56 years.

Learn the rudiments, they are important, but don't let them make you nuts.

[Aviator42009]

My secret is to play the second stroke the same as the first, simple as that. As you get more control over rebound and wrist movement, which are all things that you gain from practice, the speed will follow.

[Mike_L]

Break it down. This goes for everything you play, really. But for double stroke rolls, imagine playing each individual stroke and not relying on bounce whatsoever for the second stroke. I would even go so far as to practice playing the second stroke heavier(inverted bucks); When you start playing them normally, the second stroke, which would just naturally be softer, is now even with the first. (rR lL rR lL , capital letters accented)

After a while, your second stroke in each double will naturally become stronger.

I did a LOT of drumline/rudiment-oriented playing throughout highschool/college, so this was huge in all of my playing.

[kyle102565]

Break it down. This goes for everything you play, really. But for double stroke rolls, imagine playing each individual stroke and not relying on bounce whatsoever for the second stroke. I would even go so far as to practice playing the second stroke heavier(inverted bucks); When you start playing them normally, the second stroke, which would just naturally be softer, is now even with the first. (rR lL rR lL , capital letters accented)

After a while, your second stroke in each double will naturally become stronger.

I did a LOT of drumline/rudiment-oriented playing throughout highschool/college, so this was huge in all of my playing.

well put

[Rickkus]

Break it down. This goes for everything you play, really. But for double stroke rolls, imagine playing each individual stroke and not relying on bounce whatsoever for the second stroke. I would even go so far as to practice playing the second stroke heavier(inverted bucks); When you start playing them normally, the second stroke, which would just naturally be softer, is now even with the first. (rR lL rR lL , capital letters accented)

After a while, your second stroke in each double will naturally become stronger.

I did a LOT of drumline/rudiment-oriented playing throughout highschool/college, so this was huge in all of my playing.

Mike, in terms of form, for you, and specifically concerning the height of the stick, is your stick on the 2nd stroke 'as high' or 'higher' or lower' than the stick on the 1st stroke of the double?

[slinglander]

I'm not answering for Mike but will add that the second stroke can be "whipped" or snapped instead of bounced: tap-snap, tap-snap. It's a really quick wrist action. Real obvious when done slowly but tempers or affects the strokes at speed.
The biggest problem I found, personal, I'm sure, is matching the feel of singles with doubles on the kit. On the practice pad, no problem, but when keeping time and when my hands and feet are moving that simple 7 stroke singles roll just feels weird done as doubles! Singles seem to be like blast beats and hard to translate as doubles and, just as strange when done as partial paradiddles.

[yzrider63]

I second what Slinglander said. I saw a video of Jim Chapin explaining this. Make the first hit an up stroke, the second on the downstroke. Go S-L-O-W at first. For me it was a mental thing, it felt unnatural. It took awhile to get comfortable, but as your speed increases, the sound will even out. Google Jim Chapin, I'm sure there is video footage online about it. Good Luck!

[longgun]

Learn the rudiments, they are important, but don't let them make you nuts.

Excellent advice

But for double stroke rolls, imagine playing each individual stroke and not relying on bounce whatsoever for the second stroke.

I played drumline for years when I was a kid, but I always relied on the "bounce". Just learned it that way and my doubles are decent........probably the most solid of all my rudiments.

Can you get decent speed without the bounce?

[drummer]

What's the secret for getting the dynamics even with this rudiment

There are different ways of teaching the double bounce. I teach the strict double stroke method because too many students never really learn to control each stroke at slower tempos using the bounce method. The secret is "controlling" each stroke.

Now to your question:
It is a very simple solution. Do the RR LL patterns at a slow tempo and accent the second bounce each time. Do this exercise as a part of your regular routine and do it often. I guarantee you it will even out your stroke.

[Gavagai]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their input (sorry I haven't done that before, I've been away for a couple of days).

[drummer]

You're welcome! And please don't be a stranger. Come back and be a part of a family. We could use your input as well.

[slinglander]

Can you get decent speed without the bounce?

To some extent you always get the "bounce" but without it means all wrist action. I would say I need some bounce for speed.

[Markadiddle]

I second what Slinglander said. I saw a video of Jim Chapin explaining this. Make the first hit an up stroke, the second on the downstroke. Go S-L-O-W at first. For me it was a mental thing, it felt unnatural. It took awhile to get comfortable, but as your speed increases, the sound will even out. Google Jim Chapin, I'm sure there is video footage online about it. Good Luck!

I think I've posted this before....