How a Juilliard-Trained Percussionist Learns to Play Drums

[MDK]

Welcome Scott, great to have a different perspective. I am just a hobbyist and I doubt I can offer any advice but will watch and if I can add anything I will. I am curious do you teach at all? I would think most educated musicians would offset any lost income by giving instruction? I know a lot of kit players would love hand techinque lessons.

I been thinking of trying out for a Scottish Drum and Pipe band here but really need to work on my rudiments which I hate doing..LOL

[inthpktplayer]

Welcome to DC. I'm looking forward to staying tuned to this thread.

[SWriverstone]

Are you playing classical music at all, even just for fun with colleagues at your university?

Hi 8beat—sadly, right now I'm not playing with anyone at all (though I know many people in our college of music).

My job is pretty demanding (I'm the boss, so lots of responsibility and I'm basically on-call 24/7), plus I have a 1-year-old son and a 3-year-old daughter (second time around! I also have a daughter who's a senior in college from a previous marriage). I also love playing in the outdoors, so I try to get out a few times a week for a mountain bike ride or a kayak paddle on the river.

As a result, about the only time I have for any music these days is weekday evenings after 8pm!

I do miss playing with others a lot...and aside from just wanting to learn, I see playing drumset as a way for me to get back into performing again.

It would be great to play in an orchestra again...but there's no chance of that where I live now...and I'd have just as much fun playing kit with other musicians.

So my long-term plan is to devote the next several months (at least, maybe longer?) to just practicing drumset...and keep my ear to the ground for other local musicians to collaborate with.

Scott

[SWriverstone]

Welcome Scott, great to have a different perspective. I am just a hobbyist and I doubt I can offer any advice but will watch and if I can add anything I will. I am curious do you teach at all? I would think most educated musicians would offset any lost income by giving instruction? I know a lot of kit players would love hand techinque lessons.

I been thinking of trying out for a Scottish Drum and Pipe band here but really need to work on my rudiments which I hate doing..LOL

Hi MDK! No, I don't teach these days, mianly due to lack of time (see my previous post). I enjoy teaching (and have done it at the college level in the past)...but I enjoy performing more.

I've actually been thinking for a while that I should make some videos—open to all on the web—that teach Buster Bailey's snare drum technique (which I think is the best in the world). It's one of those projects I need to just stop thinking about and DO IT. LoL (I'll post them here first when I do!)

The Scottish pipe band sounds like a blast---though you probably know that Scottish pipe band drumming doesn't have much in common with American (drum corps-style) rudimental drumming. I think the real Scottish rudiments are much harder! Plus they have all those dotted-sixteenth-32nd-note rhythms and crazy 16th note flam triplets. But it's great!

When I was a teen growing up in Charlottesville, VA...I played in a revolutionary war-style fife and drum corps. I loved that, and would love to do that again. If you've never played rudimental stuff on one of those old-style rope-tension, deep snare drums, it's AWESOME. Those have the FATTEST snare sound on the planet---you play one note and it's the most beautiful deep, "GUMP!" sound.

Scott

[Ricardo]

That Mangini video was pretty cool Ricardo. But I have to say, I've never really been impressed by the Giant Drumset Gods (e.g. Mangini, Terry Bozzio, Neil Peart, etc.).
So I guess for me, the most important criteria in judging kit players is musicality: how well does what they play fit the music? How does it support the music? I also place a high premium on drumset players knowing when NOT to play...or at least when not to throw a machine-gun barrage of notes all over the kit.

OK -- but the point was is you asked about the feet..............and that solo clearly displays he has that ability. I posted that video because, like you, he came from an academic background..............the guy was an instructor at Berklee and I would guess he did not teach on a Giant Drumset..........he is hired to perform in a certain context and he is doing very well.

Example: There are many, many drumset players who I'm pretty sure have damn near no technique and no chops to speak of---yet are successful because they play for successful bands (we see them all the time on TV and YouTube). I'm talking about the guys who literally do nothing in their bands but play a basic backbeat (and slam the snare on 2 and 4) in every song.

Heck, many of the more famous ones include drummers like Ringo Starr and Chris Frantz of the Talking Heads.

My point is that a lot of pop/rock music requires only that the drummer be able to keep a steady beat and slam the snare on 2 and 4...and that's it! And I'm sure a lot of these guys are making a comfortable living (if they aren't downright rich) from it.

You NEVER see this in classical percussion.
I've also been amazed all my life by how well many kit players can play with such god-awful technique, LOL It makes me wonder whether technique means a damn thing? Or makes me think that drumming is ultimately all about whatever works.
And yet...in the world of pop and rock, you have hundreds (if not thousands) of hacks---some of whom get their photos on the cover of Modern Drummer---who are making big bucks.

There are quite a few guys at this board that make a decent living and are good players..............they have worked hard for many years to develop technique.............the most important aspect of drumming is that they are having fun with it.
There are many others that are trying to learn and they come here for guidance and instruction............some of them are working to get to the level of Ringo and we more experienced players would not label them or anyone as a hack.

[N2Bluz]

As I see it, Classical percussion and playing a drum set in a pop/rock/country/blues band require totally different approaches...because the music structure is totally different. The usually simple, but always steady backbeat is paramount in keeping the flow of the song (and the rest of the band) consistent...which I suspect originated with dancing. Keeping that steady backbeat is everything to the rest of the band, and a big part of what makes them successful as a band and not in spite of it.

[SWriverstone]

OK -- but the point was is you asked about the feet..............and that solo clearly displays he has that ability. I posted that video because, like you, he came from an academic background..............the guy was an instructor at Berklee and I would guess he did not teach on a Giant Drumset..........he is hired to perform in a certain context and he is doing very well.

I see your point Ricardo---and the video was awesome performance entertainment.

There are quite a few guys at this board that make a decent living and are good players..............they have worked hard for many years to develop technique.............the most important aspect of drumming is that they are having fun with it.
There are many others that are trying to learn and they come here for guidance and instruction............some of them are working to get to the level of Ringo and we more experienced players would not label them or anyone as a hack.

Again, good points. And when I made my comment about some players being hacks, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I wasn't referring at all to anyone who is just starting and has along way to go (a category I'm in as well!). And I totally agree---the point is to have fun! What I should have said (more diplomatically) is that there is an enormously wide range of technical ability among drumset players who are all making a successful living playing drums---including among drummers for famous bands.

As I see it, Classical percussion and playing a drum set in a pop/rock/country/blues band require totally different approaches...because the music structure is totally different. The usually simple, but always steady backbeat is paramount in keeping the flow of the song (and the rest of the band) consistent...which I suspect originated with dancing. Keeping that steady backbeat is everything to the rest of the band, and a big part of what makes them successful as a band and not in spite of it.

Totally agree! That's why in my first post in the thread I described classical training as a "problem" when learning to play kit (and I meant it).

And keeping a solid backbeat is absolutely essential to anchoring a successful band. It's just that I'm not interested in only playing a solid backbeat. If I were, I could probably call myself a pro drumset player by next week (because I can keep a beat like a metronome).

My goals are to reach a high level of technical proficiency---which for me personally mean:
• a high level of hand/foot independence
• a broad knowledge of lots of different rhythmic styles
• the ability to call upon that broad knowledge to invent my own style of drumset playing

And of course I have a LONG way to go before I reach that point.

In closing (to everyone) please understand that my perspective---for better or worse---has been heavily influenced by my Juilliard training. Nobody gets into Juilliard without (figuratively speaking) having awesome chops on their instrument. (Put differently, there is nobody at Juilliard who is successful because of their ability to keep a steady beat---it takes a lot more than that.)

So that's the context I'm coming from---the "filter" that I look at everything through. All it really means is that I'm a perfectionist. If my tempo, for example, varies even just a microscopic amount ahead of or behind the beat when I don't want it to---I know it, and I consider that a flaw in my own playing that I have to eliminate.

I hold myself to what are probably crazy standards of perfection in my playing---which is why I described it as a problem. It's almost impossible for me to (for example) play a little sloppy and think "So what? I'm having fun!"

Maybe playing drumset will cure me of that?

Scott

[N2Bluz]

This is very interesting. You and I are on completely opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of training and skill. Even so, I understand exactly where you're coming from....and I don't envy you at all. Being extremely focused on perfection will make you an incredible set player, but it would be an obstacle in my world. I consider my self lucky to be able to get together with 4 other guys, once per week, and "just play". Nothing is EVER perfect. Sound systems screw up. Equipment malfunctions. Room acoustics can be so bad that it makes it next to impossible to stay together. Everyone in the band makes mistakes, but it's the ability of everyone to listen to each other, compensate on the fly and cover those mistakes that makes us a "band". The high point of my week is getting together with my friends, drinking a few beers and enjoy the magic that is playing music with others. I could never have fun if I was that focused on perfection. I fear that such self inflicted pressure for would ruin one of my greatest joys in life!

[signia fan]

Hey all, I am a little late to the party here, just got back from Vegas. It totally sucked, I may elaborate on that in another post, but for now, very excited to to see a new member with such a cool background. Buster's technique really interests me. I am 50 and have played drum set, full time professional since I was seventeen, got my first kit when I was around 8. Most of those years I got by flailing away smacking 2 and 4 and I still find myself playing with the butt of the stick almost leaving my hand. This believe it or not comes from playing very relaxed and because a lot of rudimentary technique is not required for most of the music I have played, it always just seemed to get the biggest swing with the least amount of effort. At 50, I have spent the last couple years struggling to become the technically trained player I never was, and am also working hard to take my double kick playing to the next level. I am also not playing live for now, so this is done strictly for me and my own personal desire to be better. So in this, I think I understand your quest.
Last year I was introduced by way of a clinic to a hardcore metal drummer from the band Cryptopsy or something like that, Flo Mournier. He has pretty advanced hand speed and I assumed it was all fingers. When I asked him about he, he surprised me when he said it was all wrist. He spends a couple hours a day weight training, wrist curls etc. but he has to be relaxed I know. Virgil Donati says he also uses a lot of wrist only. I am intrigued and hope you stay active here so I/we can suck some of that knowledge out of you.

[SWriverstone]

This is very interesting. You and I are on completely opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of training and skill. Even so, I understand exactly where you're coming from....and I don't envy you at all. Being extremely focused on perfection will make you an incredible set player, but it would be an obstacle in my world. I consider my self lucky to be able to get together with 4 other guys, once per week, and "just play". Nothing is EVER perfect. Sound systems screw up. Equipment malfunctions. Room acoustics can be so bad that it makes it next to impossible to stay together. Everyone in the band makes mistakes, but it's the ability of everyone to listen to each other, compensate on the fly and cover those mistakes that makes us a "band". The high point of my week is getting together with my friends, drinking a few beers and enjoy the magic that is playing music with others. I could never have fun if I was that focused on perfection. I fear that such self inflicted pressure for would ruin one of my greatest joys in life!

I really view it as a curse, LOL! Thankfully, I do know what you mean just by kicking back and having fun.

Back in 2002 while I was living in Shepherdstown, WV (a great little college town), I formed a casual drum group. It was me and 4 or 5 other guys, and we met like clockwork every Wednesday night in my (big) kitchen and just improvised. It was a blast (and was plenty sloppy at times) because we had (between us) an insane collection of electronic and acoustic instruments---everything from an electronic drumkit to congas and bongos to clay pot drums and African xylophones to DrumKats to Roland Handsonics to baskets full of shakers, rattles, triangles, etc.

It was exactly like you described: we just drank beer, ate chips and salsa, and had a blast! It even got to the point where we were semi-serious, and did gigs in local bars and arts festivals.

But as much fun as that was...my Juilliard background and professional experience was always "lurking" in the background and I couldn't shake it. After 2+ years of performing with the drum group, I just got tired of not being able to do more. None of the other guys were trained musicians (even though they were great friends), none could read music, and most of our jamming was in 4/4 (though over time I got 'em all to do some basic 7/8 jams).

I eventually disbanded the group. Just told everyone (hard as it was) that I was bored and wanted more---I wanted to work out detailed, composed pieces with lots of mixed meters and more complex musical structure...which would have been impossible for the other guys (or at least very difficult). And I knew that wasn't going to happen, because whenever I pushed these guys, it stopped being fun for them! LOL (And they pushed back.)

So my plan now is to practice like a madman for the next 6-12 months...then go out and start looking for other musicians to play with.

Scott

[SWriverstone]

At 50, I have spent the last couple years struggling to become the technically trained player I never was, and am also working hard to take my double kick playing to the next level. I am also not playing live for now, so this is done strictly for me and my own personal desire to be better. So in this, I think I understand your quest.

Good on you for trying to do this at age 50! I'm 51, and there's nothing like a "second life"---and trying to reinvent yourself after half a century.

He spends a couple hours a day weight training, wrist curls etc. but he has to be relaxed I know.

I've heard of other drummers doing this and it baffles me—only because I know from my drum corps/rudimental experience that having muscles has got NOTHING to do with drumming fast, loud, or well. It's all in how much you play, period (and of course how you practice and what you practice). But I see a lot of rock drummers on TV and, well, I totally get wanting to LOOK badass with bulging biceps, LOL.

As I mentioned a few posts back, I'm going to try to throw together a video that introduces the basic concepts of Buster Bailey's philosophy---I really think a lot of folks would find it interesting and (hopefully) beneficial. Stay tuned!

Scott

PS - On the "working out" part, just go buy yourself a pair of serious marching sticks ("clubs") and play with those for a while---it's like swinging two bats, LOL. If you go back to normal sticks they'll feel like toothpicks! I actually still do 90% of my snare/2-hand technique practicing on a rubber RealFeel pad with marching sticks.

[Ricardo]

And when I made my comment about some players being hacks, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I wasn't referring at all to anyone who is just starting and has along way to go (a category I'm in as well!). And I totally agree---the point is to have fun! What I should have said (more diplomatically) is that there is an enormously wide range of technical ability among drumset players who are all making a successful living playing drums---including among drummers for famous bands.
In closing (to everyone) please understand that my perspective---for better or worse---has been heavily influenced by my Juilliard training. Nobody gets into Juilliard without (figuratively speaking) having awesome chops on their instrument. (Put differently, there is nobody at Juilliard who is successful because of their ability to keep a steady beat---it takes a lot more than that.)
Scott

Scott :
No offense taken.
I've been doing gigs for so long -- on all levels -- that I'm immune to other opinion. I think the difference in your background and of most of the players at this board boil down to many of the same differences between the history of rock & pop compared to the history of the classical composer required to perform for the European court.............it is certain that you were held to a different standard. I am very careful to always be a positive source of incentive for everyone here. I believe you could do that in a big way and because of that potential, I am glad you joined us.

Let's start with this :
What is the number one snare drum drill that will help all of us in our routine practice session ?

Thanks in advance.

[JohnnySticks]

Hi Scott and welcome. Do you happen to know Joe Adato? He went to Julliard and played many decades for the Cleveland Orchestra before retiring a couple of years ago. He was the "cymbal guy." I've played with him in a couple of community groups and picked up a few pointers along the way.

[SWriverstone]

Let's start with this :
What is the number one snare drum drill that will help all of us in our routine practice session ?

Thanks in advance.

I'm working on a short video this morning I should have posted by midday to answer your question Ricardo. (We have a snow day here in West Virginia today.) Stay tuned!

Scott

[SWriverstone]

Ideas of helping getting the feet in shape for playing the kit, their are some basics.
Keep a solid 2&4 (left foot) with the hi hat when playing or doing exercises.
Play a 4 on the floor when doing exercises on the kit. Gives your right foot auto pilot ability of playing the bass drum when at the same time playing toms or cymbals, also lets you know if your playing correctly from a quarter note frame of reference.

Great ideas---thanks! I've started doing some of this—like keeping straight 1/4-note beats on the kick and upbeats on the hat.

And I've been amazed at how much harder playing even a simple hand exercise is when you add even basic timekeeping with the kick and hat, LOL. That's when I know I'm really a spazz!

Scott

[MDK]

many of the members here including myself can suggest drum set books that will get you up and running playing up beats in a heart beat. I put drum set books into 2 categories. Boring, mechanical, cant use in a playing situations type book and the one's that I like are what I call player books. Exercises that not only teach you cool beats, licks but can be used in playing situations.

If you know of it I am curious as to which category you would put the book "Bass Drum Control by Colin Bailey"? I just ordered it.

[N2Bluz]

It really is amazing when you consider the abilities of the human mind. Starting out, we all struggle with coordination. As we develop, we get get to the point where it just happens automatically without even thinking about it. Then, we try singing and playing at the same time, and eventually the muscle training takes over and it just happens again. Reminds me of that line from the sword fighting scene in "The Last Samauri".....

"Too many mind...mind sword, mind enemy, mind people watching. NO MIND!"

[SWriverstone]

Hi Everyone---took a little longer than I planned (with kids around the house all day), but I finished a first video introducing Buster Bailey's snare drum technique. I think it's the best technique in the world for your hands, and this is the best way I could think of to give you some advice—in the form of a lesson.

So check it out and let me know what you think! If you like it, I'll make some more that pick up where this one leaves off (but this one has plenty to get you going with this technique).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMKHc...ature=youtu.be

Scott

PS - Don't know if there's YouTube code for this forum that'll embed the video right here in the post? But I did notice there is Vimeo embed code...so if there's not any for YouTube, I'll upload it to my Vimeo account tomorrow and embed it that way. :-)

[slinky]

hi Scott, great video so far. I'm at work and can't watch the whole thing. I've been wanting to get into marching snares or tenors and will work with your video. I've never been in a marching band. Never played any marching percussion instruments.

Currently in a hard rock band on set. That's all I've ever done.

[8beat]

Thanks for posting the video. I'm watching it now.

[SWriverstone]

hi Scott, great video so far. I'm at work and can't watch the whole thing. I've been wanting to get into marching snares or tenors and will work with your video. I've never been in a marching band. Never played any marching percussion instruments.

Currently in a hard rock band on set. That's all I've ever done.

Thanks slinky---but don't take it too literally for marching/rudimental drumming. The Bailey Technique is a LOT more relaxed than the way drum corps drummers play these days.

In drum corps, the focus is on uniformity (every snare being a clone of the next)...so that---combined with the ergonomic demands of hauling the snare around---result in some really weird/bad arm position and tension everywhere. You can see the tension when you watch the guys play in rehearsal (with their tank tops on).

Rudimental drumming used to be a lot more relaxed (in the days before kevlar heads). If you watch DCI videos (for example, the 1980 Bayonne Bridgemen) you'll see a *dramatically* different style of playing that was a lot more relaxed and swung like crazy.

You can definitely play rudiments using the Bailey Technique---in fact, most of the exercises Buster made us play are far more difficult than most rudiments today.

Scott

[inthpktplayer]

Strange, says video is currently unavailable.

[slinky]

thank you, got ya on the differences. I guess when the stadiums got bigger the sticks got bigger then the heads needed to become stronger lol. I remember putting a kevlar type Remo (Falaams) or something like that on my set snare a long time ago. Didn't sound too good.

[SWriverstone]

Hi Scott, I would concentrate on 4 on the floor first. Playing simple quarter notes while playing other rhythms over that can be difficult at times.

Thanks Jackie. I hear you about how even playing 4 on the floor can suddenly make my hands feel spastic, LOL. I'll be playing some simple combination with my hands...and the second I add the kick my hands basically explode, LOL. Then I slow it down, work it out...and can usually get back up to speed before long.

I put drum set books into 2 categories. Boring, mechanical, cant use in a playing situations type book and the one's that I like are what I call player books. Exercises that not only teach you cool beats, licks but can be used in playing situations.

That's great---the books in the 2nd category are definitely what I'm looking for! Throw some recommendations at me any time.

Your reading ability will make these books a piece of cake for you to work through. With your background, I believe all you need is a little tweeking and then you will be catapulted into the masters level of playing, in short order.

I dunno, we'll see. LOL When I look at great kit players, it's not what they do with their hands or feet that blows me away so much as their seemingly endless knowledge of grooves and riffs and fills---and endless variations on them. That encyclopedic knowledge---and the ability to know exactly what goes perfectly with any song---is what intimidates me...mainly because I know a lot of players have accumulated that knowledge over a lifetime (and I don't have a lifetime left!).

Learn to think melodically on the drum set, your hands will do the rest. John Bonham played melodically with his beats, they were not just back beats (2&4) beats. Gene Krupa, Cozy Cole, Chick Webb played melodically on their snares and toms. When I play, in my mind, I try and make my set SING, (its played as one instrument not several drums) it does not make a difference if I am playing a beat, fill, solo or accenting parts of the song when playing, let it sing.

This is great advice. something to keep in my head all the time I'm practicing!

Scott

[NPYYZ]

Hi Everyone---took a little longer than I planned (with kids around the house all day), but I finished a first video introducing Buster Bailey's snare drum technique. I think it's the best technique in the world for your hands, and this is the best way I could think of to give you some advice—in the form of a lesson.

So check it out and let me know what you think! If you like it, I'll make some more that pick up where this one leaves off (but this one has plenty to get you going with this technique).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMKHc...ature=youtu.be

Scott

PS - Don't know if there's YouTube code for this forum that'll embed the video right here in the post? But I did notice there is Vimeo embed code...so if there's not any for YouTube, I'll upload it to my Vimeo account tomorrow and embed it that way. :-)

Excellent video Scott. I started playing drums in 1974. I taught myself what I could for the first couple years playing along to albums of bands I liked. Then I took lessons for a few months to get me past the odd time barrier I had come up against. Then it was back to teaching myself.

In 1977 I joined my first band which was the beginning of a 14 year career playing the New England club circuit. We played pretty much 48 weeks a year. In 1991 I stopped playing out due to feeling burnt out, being tired of playing cover tunes , and my Daughter was growing up with a Dad that was gone 5 days a week, so I moved my kit to the basement and that is where I've enjoyed playing my drums for the past 22 years.

I was surprised in watching this video because that wrist technique is in a small way like the way I have always played, by that I mean I've always used my wrists, although your method is much more advanced. I did at one point early on try using my fingers to move the drumstick, but didn't like it, I found it to be lacking in control , power, and even grip.

The throw , drop , follow technique you demonstrated is amazing. At age 54 you have now got me to dig out my practice pad and start learning this method. Hard to teach an old dog new tricks as they say, but I'm going to give it a shot.

Thanks for taking the time to make the video.