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Thread: How a Juilliard-Trained Percussionist Learns to Play Drums

  1. #76

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    I just wanted to echo everyone else's sentiments and say Welcome to DC Scott! That instructional video you posted was fantastic! You are a really good instructor. I am definitely going to be practicing that technique.

    Again, welcome!
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  2. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by SWriverstone View Post
    Great video---I'm a HUGE Yes fan (specifically, the incarnation of Yes with Jon Anderson). Bruford could have done all that on a TrapKat, LOL---but of course it wouldn't have looked nearly as cool.

    Scott
    Me too............I've seen them live on 14 different occasions between 1971 and 2004.
    Bruford is excellent at mixing it up -- making even meter feel odd and odd meters feel very odd !

    Also -- if you listen to the original SOUND CHASER (from RELAYER), Alan White does an amazing job at a 5/8 feel at quick tempo.............odd consruction but cool song.
    At my drum set jury in music school, I played THE REVEALING SCIENCE OF GOD from the album Topographic Oceans............fun memories.
    Last edited by Ricardo; 03-05-2014 at 03:04 PM.
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  3. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by SWriverstone View Post
    I just said "Screw it, I'm outta here." I switched careers, and today I'm the director of marketing and communications for a major university.
    Does the smell of burning couches ever leave the air in Morgantown?
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  4. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markadiddle View Post
    I just wanted to echo everyone else's sentiments and say Welcome to DC Scott! That instructional video you posted was fantastic! You are a really good instructor. I am definitely going to be practicing that technique.

    Again, welcome!
    Thanks Markadiddle. i like teaching---I just don't have time for it in person these days---but the video thing is one way to do it. (I've gotten so much from people online over the years that I figure making some videos is one way to give back!)

    Quote Originally Posted by weezy
    Does the smell of burning couches ever leave the air in Morgantown?
    Ha---it'll take us a while to live that reputation down. In truth it rarely happens these days...but there was a time...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardo
    Also -- if you listen to the original SOUND CHASER (from RELAYER), Alan White does an amazing job at a 5/8 feel at quick tempo.............odd consruction but cool song.
    At my drum set jury in music school, I played THE REVEALING SCIENCE OF GOD from the album Topographic Oceans............fun memories.
    Cool---I don't know that one, so I'll check it out. And great story about your jury. One year, I played Zappa's "The Black Page" on xylophone.

    Scott

  5. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Wright View Post
    I was perusing YouTube, searching for something on Buster Bailey's method of playing snare drum and guess what I found? Scott Wilkerson's YouTube video of "The Bailey Technique of Snare Drumming" and after watching a couple minutes of the vid, Im quite impressed with this style of playing. So for those who are curious about learning a new style of sticking, check out Scott Wilkersons's video called "The Bailey Technique of Snare Drumming - Part 1"
    Wow---you found it that fast! Google never ceases to amaze me, LOL. Glad you liked it. I'll start working on part 2 soon...

    Scott

  6. #81

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    Great Video Scott, it seems to resemble the Moeller technique to me. I watched 11 minutes of your video till my boss came in and will watch the rest later tonight so sorry if you reference that later in the video.
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  7. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by SWriverstone View Post
    Ha---it'll take us a while to live that reputation down. In truth it rarely happens these days...but there was a time...
    Glad that you got the joke. I've been asked if we riot every year on Halloween in Madison.
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  8. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by SWriverstone View Post
    Good question! (Makes me think.) It almost kills me to say it...but I think a big reason is visual, LOL. I was always a very visual timpani player (long, high follow-throughs after every stroke).

    But actually, here's the real reason: timpani rolls are always single stroke, and you must master them at all dynamic levels---from ppp to fff. I found that French grip enables you to more effectively control the balance of the stick at the fulcrum, since the stick rests on the side of your index finger underneath and your thumb presses down from above.

    This reduces the effect of gravity on the head of the stick---gravity that in German grip naturally pulls the head down, which you don't want on timpani. Not sure if that makes sense? (It does in my head, LOL.)

    I think a lot has to do with follow-through, or (as is often described) pulling the sound up out of the head---the upward component of every stroke is just as important as the downward motion...and I think French grip definitely makes that upward follow-through easier.

    Scott
    Thanks, some of what I was thinking especially in terms of pulling tone but also mechanically, well put. I didn't see that visual end of it coming into the picture, lol, buy hey, it has its place!
    don't put off till tomorrow what you can put off today

  9. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by swriverstone View Post
    one year, i played zappa's "the black page" on xylophone.
    ack !
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  10. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by MDK View Post
    Great Video Scott, it seems to resemble the Moeller technique to me. I watched 11 minutes of your video till my boss came in and will watch the rest later tonight so sorry if you reference that later in the video.
    Thanks MDK. I actually didn't reference Moeller in this video, but your comment about the Bailey technique resembling the Moeller technique actually caused me to watch some videos on the Moeller technique to refresh my memory about what it is (there are a ton of Moeller technique vids on YouTube!)

    I'm glad I did this (and that you pointed out the resemblance)...because I realize now that I need to reference it and do a better job of explaining how the Bailey technique differs from Moeller, push-pull, open-close, etc.

    The biggest difference is that those other techniques appear to be specialized "multi-stroke" techniques, or ways to play multiple strokes with one hand. Buster's technique---while having some similarities---is really a technique you use 100% of the time---for literally every note (or tap) you play. In this sense, it's more of a "lifelong" technique for everything...as opposed to a specific technique for specific circumstances.

    I'm not an expert on the Moeller/push-pull/open-close techniques...but just watching videos by Gordy Knutson, Jojo Mayer, etc...one big difference that jumps out is that all those techniques use a lot of finger motion, as well as (with Moeller) a lot of arm motion. I also saw some REALLY weird things going on with people's hands and fingers (Jim Chapin has a bunch of vids and I've gotta say his hands look BIZARRE when he plays!).

    The Bailey technique uses no finger motion at all (it's all in the wrist)...and far less arm motion. I also get the impression (but could be wrong) that the Moeller technique is impossible to do really quietly (because you have to have a certain amount of "whip action" to get the multiple strokes). With the Bailey technique, you can play anything at pp that you can play at ff---you just use all "drop" strokes without the "throw" strokes. (Keep in mind this is because Buster was an orchestral snare drummer who played classical music---which often calls for super-precise, super-quiet playing.)

    Scott
    Last edited by SWriverstone; 03-05-2014 at 08:17 PM.

  11. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by SWriverstone View Post
    Fair call! I shouldn't have said that. I guess I was referring to how many drummers (but certainly not all) equate "drum god" with "bending time and space through blistering chops."

    Example: how many drummers would say Ringo Starr is one of the greatest drummers of all time? I'm guessing nobody (or very few)---but from a musical perspective, I'd say he has as much a case for the title as anyone! (After all, he drummed for the greatest band in human history...at least in my opinion. ) I suppose it all comes down to your definition of "great drummer."

    @onegourd—you make some good points about French grip (thumb-up). I play that way exclusively on timpani and would NEVER consider playing timpani with German grip (thumb to the side, palm down).

    Watching the Jojo Mayer videos really impressed upon me the fact that it's possible to have mind-boggling speed and power---as well as rebound---using French grip.

    But I wonder---do you (or anyone else who plays right-hand French grip) stick to French grip if you're just playing the snare or toms?

    ---
    And strictly speaking, you're right in that the wrist *does* do a bit more work in the Bailey technique than the initial throw...but that "work" is only the bare minimum amount of work required to follow the rebound---after the throw, it's like pedaling a bicycle downhill.

    Scott
    Billy Cobham is one well known drummer who plays French/timp grip for rolls on the snare whilst switching to a more American style grip (and sometimes traditional grip, though with a twist....right hand with trad grip instead of left), when going around the set. He's also one of the early exponents of open-handed playing. Plus he's a great tune writer. Here's one of his compositions, pretty much is a "standard" amongst some musicians:

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  12. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by SWriverstone View Post
    Cool---I don't know that one, so I'll check it out. And great story about your jury. One year, I played Zappa's "The Black Page" on xylophone.
    Scott -- I remembered one more last night.
    When I was a sophomore, I was in our 12-man percussion ensemble.........our instructor/conductor was Paul Guerrero (Woody Herman)...........he would push us to write original compositions or bring in transcriptions of new stuff and then he would decide if it made the concerts or not.
    I bought the music for the Yes album RELAYER and I transcribed the music of TO BE OVER for bells, (two) vibes and the bass part for marimba. I then wrote the rhythm parts for chimes, suspended cymbal, snare, bass drum and concert toms as well as made up a nice tymp part.............Paul loved it and kept it in the song list for over a year.........it actually sounded good. I got to choose my part so I really enjoyed playing Chris Squire's bass part on the Musser concert marimba.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbledore View Post
    Billy Cobham is one well known drummer who plays French/timp grip for rolls on the snare whilst switching to a more American style grip He's also one of the early exponents of open-handed playing.
    Yep -- Lenny White uses a lot of French grip and also open playing too.
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  13. #88

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    Hi All---been sick with a viral bug for over a week and also crazy-busy at work...so that "life stuff" has kept me from practicing regularly. I'm ready to get back to it though! Also starting to think more about the application of the Bailey technique to drumset, so will start playing around with that.

    One thing I'm still interested in is bass pedal technique: I've been practicing heel-down exclusively. The main reason is because it seemed to me (starting from scratch and trying both heel-down and heel-up) that it was easier to play more dynamics heel-down---for example, it was easier to play "bass drum ghost notes" followed by a louder note.

    To me, heel-up felt more aggressive---more like a "blunt" approach...but I admit that might just be because I suck at it, LOL (and heel-up might be just as "soft and sensitive" as heel-down?).

    Thoughts?
    Scott
    Last edited by SWriverstone; 03-14-2014 at 01:58 PM.

  14. #89

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    IMHO, dynamics can be executed with either technique. As with anything, repetition makes it happen. I guess choose whichever technique works for you and that you are most comfortable with.

  15. #90

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    Heel down is effective for strengthening your heel up playing, but honestly heel up is the most widely used. Personally all my playing is heel up, my legs are permanently levitated whilst playing, this is very good for your abs and back muscles. The balance is in your butt not on your feet. Just think how effective your hands would be if they were also used to rest on the rim to hold up your torso.
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  16. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by SWriverstone View Post
    Hi All---been sick with a viral bug for over a week and also crazy-busy at work...so that "life stuff" has kept me from practicing regularly. I'm ready to get back to it though! Also starting to think more about the application of the Bailey technique to drumset, so will start playing around with that.

    One thing I'm still interested in is bass pedal technique: I've been practicing heel-down exclusively. The main reason is because it seemed to me (starting from scratch and trying both heel-down and heel-up) that it was easier to play more dynamics heel-down---for example, it was easier to play "bass drum ghost notes" followed by a louder note.

    To me, heel-up felt more aggressive---more like a "blunt" approach...but I admit that might just be because I suck at it, LOL (and heel-up might be just as "soft and sensitive" as heel-down?).

    Thoughts?
    Scott
    You can play both Scott. I use heel down for very soft tunes and heel up for everything else.

    There are many approaches to playing the drums. There are books and videos that say you have to do it this way or that way. But like life itself, there are thousands of variables and numerous ways to skin the proverbial cat.

  17. #92

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    scott,

    I am a jazz percussionist currently studying at Oberlin Conservatory in Ohio. I have some advice/knowledge that I can offer you in proceeding with the drumset.

    First-- The value of transcription. Since drum set is used primarily for music that is not written down, most drum set players learned to play by ear and then supplement that with rudimental exercises when they find holes in their playing. You talk of wanting a large groove library in your mind so to speak-- a list of that does not actually exist anywhere, and even if it did, learning them from paper would be an approximation of the rhythmic complexities that exist in each beat-- for example looking at jon bonham's playing on paper and looking at bernard purdie's on paper next to it-- they would be almost identical in a lot of the groove basics-- but their playing styles are completely different. and to take it to another more extreme level-- the beats that were played for james brown by clyde stubblefield and jabo starks (two of the most influential drummers everything that came after them for decades) are notated almost the same as california reggae/dub bands from the 90s-- yet the feel is entirely different. so listening, transcription and playing with records is key to becoming a good drum set player-- the way that the hihat can be on top of the beat yet the snare and kick be behind it, or they can all be perfectly together. it's all different, and none of it is wrong-- just stylistic.

    Transcriptions is the real way to become familiar with sounds of the drum set and being able to play the 'right' thing at the right moment (and that right thing can be a million things-- some perfectly substitutable, but some only approximations of what could push the music further and bigger). don't feel the need to learn songs just because people tell you they're good. i am a firm believer in the idea that everything you ever learn has an influence on your subconscious ability to play and interpret music. and learning things that you don't like isn't going to help you create the personality that you want to on drum set. i say personality because playing drum set with a band, writing your own music or even playing covers, is ultimately about what YOU can add to the sound, not just playing the part. its about playing consistently-- yes--- each skilled drummer's consistency feels different though. they may all be in time and well placed and played but they will all feel different because each drummer was influenced by different drummers. so learning to play like the drummers that influence you is part and parcel to becoming the drummer that you want to be. you say that you love the way stewart copeland plays-- if you really want to inject some of himself into your playing, I would learn every record he's ever recorded--- obviously that is overkill but you get the point. learn those flourishes that he does and think about why he put them there. don't ever try to force something that he did on someone else's music just because you like it, but if you think it fits? why not play it!

    not to say that this is more or less important that proper technique and coordination practice-- they are just as important as eachother. you know way more than i do about hand technique and i'm actually taking some lessons from you in that case (tony williams, one of the most skilled, versatile, and influential jazz drummers, says the same thing about playing with the wrist, only he phrases it as playing with the whole hand--- the concept 'no fingers' is there)but I can offer some good work on coordination. probably the best book out there for coordination is Alan Dawson's Rudimental Ritual. basically, what you do is play an ostinato (usually derived from brazilian or afro-cuban rhythms) between your two feet and then play all of his 76 rudiments over that. start slow and increase speed obviously. i would say that for where you are, and want to be with coordination, that is the most important book for you.

    as far as rhythmic diversity, it all comes from africa and latin-america. that's kind of what jazz is-- european tonalities over african rhythms (though after a couple hundred years removal from their original context they are very different-- that is a simplified definition of it). i'm still in the process of learning but there are a million things to learn from. all the rhythms are played seperately as a 'percussion ensemble' but they have been condensed into drum set grooves in their time in america.

    some names of different drummers and why i think they're important-- i hope you like jazz. any of these people, you can go on allmusic.com to find any record that they have ever been credited on.

    max roach-- considered one of the most musical drummers out there, highly influential, incredible touch, feel, and ears-- he knows what to play when instinctually. recommended recordings-- Max Roach and Clifford Brown Live and Massey Hall

    clyde stubblefield/jabo starks-- drummers in James Brown's Band. incredible feel that is totally derived from themselves. they for all intents and purposes invented funk and to this day are the funkiest drummers dead or alive (both still alive actually). recommended recordings- i feel good, papa's got a new bag, get up (sex machine).

    philly joe jones-- drummer in miles davis's first quintet. perfectly relaxed laid back feel, never a note out of place. equally prolific as a band leader really. recordings- miles davi's relaxin, workin, smokin, and others.

    jimmy cobb-- the undisputed master of the quarter note. recording- miles davis's kind blue. really listen to this.

    tony williams-- the greatest student of drums and rhythm that ever lived. was alan dawson's most famous student. incredible practice drive and motivation to learn everything that came before him. i would watch some of his clinics on youtube if i were you because the insight that he has about music is eye-opening. very intelligent musician as well, and very intentional.

    elvin jones-- one of my favorite drummers, very divisive cat when he came on the scene because of how he played very behind the beat. whereas jazz was swung but still thought of as two eighth notes per beat (although obviously triplets were still played) he had a perception of a rolling triplet that opened up the beat to other interpretations. incredibly specific personality on the kit. recordings-- john coltrane's a love supreme. john coltrane's ballads record.

    ringo starr-- i've seen some talk about him on this list so i just had to put him on because i think that people don't really know why he was the drummer of the beatles and why he was so good. i think it's because he doesn't play patterns or grooves, he plays the music. his touch is so light, never heavy, never feels dragging you down or anything, just really perfect, very sparse, not distracting from the music, all the emphases perfectly placed. he also laid down all of his takes perfectly-- very good time, no mistakes type stuff.

    jack dejhonette- perfect light touch. records-- joe farrell moon germs.

    how could I forget MIKE CLARK -- currently my favorite drummer. not a hugely recorded or even diverse drummer but he drummed on my favorite jazz record HERBIE HAN**** THRUST-- the reason this is caps is because i think you can get a lot out of it because of the ridiculous rhythmic complexity that is still all perfectly placed. no note doesn't contribute to the forward motion. and by that i mean every note pushes the song forward. also his connection with the bass player and with herbie himself is unparalleled in the way they phrase together and always hit the same places at the same moment. to hear a more simple version of this record drum-wise-- headhunters was herbie's immediately previous record. virtually the the only difference feel-wise is the groove variety that mike clark provides.

    i said earlier i guess that many drummers learned by ear but many of these guys do have drum corps/orchestral experience. philly joe jones was a marcher, max roach, elvin jones has many videos online where he talks about the importance of rudiments. tony williams was a perpetual student of music, which i feel you are to. i even have a list of their favorite classical snare drum pieces which i am sure you would be familiar with.

    you can always find stuff about rock anywhere so i figured i would provide a different perspective on rhythm and drum set playing than the self-taught approach
    so anyways, i hope you are still checking up this thread still and i hope i can impart something of my teacher billy hart's teaching on you.

    anyone feel free to ask questions.

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