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Thread: Issues with posture and throne height (again)

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    Hey guys, awhile back I made a post about my struggles with playing and how I was always getting back pain. Well, I have recently lost around 50 pounds and become much healthier, and have tried to improve lots of things, including my posture. Problem is, with drumming I am having a hard time doing it.

    I don't have any pictures to show you guys (I'll get one tomorrow when I go do a gig), but I am 5'5" and have shorter legs. This should hopefully put things in perspective. I use a Pearl Roadster throne and I have tried numerous height settings on this thing, but I now use it on the lowest setting. This is approximately how I look when sitting:

    I try my very hardest to keep my back straight (I consciously do so, and even keep my shoulders down). Still, issues with pain in my back (it seems to be middle back, not really lower...I know, I have to experience it to really recall correctly, but that seems right). I have tried moving closer to the set, further away to no avail. My snare is positioned right in the middle, my tom is tilted good, so no issues there. I'm wondering if I should think about cutting down my throne/getting a new throne?

    Has anyone else had this issue before? I don't sing much at all when playing, and in fact I have not sung at all when playing in the past few months so there is nothing going on with my neck. I know a lot of guys really stress a 90 degree angle or right about there, and that's impossible with my throne. I definitely don't want to damage my back/spine so want to get some advice from drummers who have maybe fixed this issue! Thanks everyone!
    Last edited by ZackPomerleau; 07-10-2014 at 12:03 AM.

  2. #2

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    get a throne that can go lower and sit on the edge of the throne

    you really want as close to 90 degrees as possible ...

  3. #3

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    Sorry but I disagree with the 90 degree playing angle.

    I watch some of the drummers that sit at 90 degrees and, while they can be quite fast, their whole leg is moving to get the job done.

    Somewhere in the dim, distant past, when I got my 1st set of Ludwigs and went from a 20" BD with a 12x8" up tom to a 22" BD with a 13x9" tom, I had to raise the height of my seat so that my leg is probably between 75 and 80 degrees and found that I was faster with 1/2 the effort because the only part of my leg that was moving was my ankle and I could play way more easily than I could at 90 degrees.

    I'm a hair over 6' and my seat is at 27"s, and anybody who watches my vids can see that while the BD is going fairly quick, my upper leg isn't even moving, so there is no wasted energy.

    I have to say that I play heel down, always have, and find heel up totally uncomfortable and a whole different ballgame.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by itchie View Post
    get a throne that can go lower and sit on the edge of the throne

    you really want as close to 90 degrees as possible ...
    Do you have any recommendations on a throne that can go super low? The Roadster goes to 18" I think. It has a round seat which is pretty cool I think. I could probably use that on any throne I get honestly! I'll also try sitting closer to the edge of the throne (I assume you mean edge closest to the set?) as that might even lessen the angle a bit as I actually sit pretty far back right now. Thanks for the tip! I've been told this but never really tried it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    Sorry but I disagree with the 90 degree playing angle.

    I watch some of the drummers that sit at 90 degrees and, while they can be quite fast, their whole leg is moving to get the job done.

    Somewhere in the dim, distant past, when I got my 1st set of Ludwigs and went from a 20" BD with a 12x8" up tom to a 22" BD with a 13x9" tom, I had to raise the height of my seat so that my leg is probably between 75 and 80 degrees and found that I was faster with 1/2 the effort because the only part of my leg that was moving was my ankle and I could play way more easily than I could at 90 degrees.

    I'm a hair over 6' and my seat is at 27"s, and anybody who watches my vids can see that while the BD is going fairly quick, my upper leg isn't even moving, so there is no wasted energy.

    I have to say that I play heel down, always have, and find heel up totally uncomfortable and a whole different ballgame.
    I'll definitely have to try that, but will definitely need something that goes lower. I'll have to ask if you have any recommendations on a throne? I can always cut the pipe down (I read that online on another forum), too. I play heel down mostly, heel up for power and such. Just one of those things.

    I do mostly blues and funk stuff, but I also do jazz and classic rock-ish stuff, too. Nothing crazy. That angle thing is something I've read from a lot of sources but can't really get THAT low. I should probably also mention I play a Gretsch Catalina, so little bass drum, too! Thanks for responding!

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZackPomerleau View Post
    Do you have any recommendations on a throne that can go super low? The Roadster goes to 18" I think. It has a round seat which is pretty cool I think. I could probably use that on any throne I get honestly! I'll also try sitting closer to the edge of the throne (I assume you mean edge closest to the set?) as that might even lessen the angle a bit as I actually sit pretty far back right now. Thanks for the tip! I've been told this but never really tried it.



    I'll definitely have to try that, but will definitely need something that goes lower. I'll have to ask if you have any recommendations on a throne? I can always cut the pipe down (I read that online on another forum), too. I play heel down mostly, heel up for power and such. Just one of those things.

    I do mostly blues and funk stuff, but I also do jazz and classic rock-ish stuff, too. Nothing crazy. That angle thing is something I've read from a lot of sources but can't really get THAT low. I should probably also mention I play a Gretsch Catalina, so little bass drum, too! Thanks for responding!

    You should look in to Gibraltar thrones. I have a Roc&Soc Nitro, which is hydraulic, so not much you can do with that, but the Gibraltar has a screw type adjustment that, while I've never lowered it all the way, looks like it can go pretty low.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    You should look in to Gibraltar thrones. I have a Roc&Soc Nitro, which is hydraulic, so not much you can do with that, but the Gibraltar has a screw type adjustment that, while I've never lowered it all the way, looks like it can go pretty low.
    I know the Roc&Soc Nitro goes as low as the one I have (pretty sure at least), but I'll check out the Gibraltars right now!

  7. #7

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    Just checked, my throne seems to only go to around 19.5 inches, so I was way off on the 18" thing. That's probably close to what I would need actually. Their short version goes all the way down to 17.91 (which isn't much considering the Roc&Soc goes to about that), and Gibraltar has some thrones that go all the way to 16"! Gibraltar even seems to sell only the bottom part of the thrones, too. Definitely worth checking into.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZackPomerleau View Post
    Just checked, my throne seems to only go to around 19.5 inches, so I was way off on the 18" thing. That's probably close to what I would need actually. Their short version goes all the way down to 17.91 (which isn't much considering the Roc&Soc goes to about that), and Gibraltar has some thrones that go all the way to 16"! Gibraltar even seems to sell only the bottom part of the thrones, too. Definitely worth checking into.

    I hope you find what you need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    I hope you find what you need.
    Me too! You've helped a lot, it seems like they make a part that should do the trick for me. I think what I might do for now is see if I can cut down the inner-tubing. Well...I'll think about it at least! Good to know there are at least a few options for thrones out there...not a lot, but a few.

  10. #10

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    Can you simulate that height with a regular chair before you commit to another throne only to find the height thing is not a solution? Big congrats to you and your new healthy lifestyle!!! Remember there are no hard and fast rules for this stuff, its whatever works for you.....

  11. #11

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    Most chairs have a top- of- cushion height of 16.5" -17" so test your need of a low seat with an armless chair or stool. Also check to see if you could use back support by sitting on your throne with your back against a wall and playing rudiments or something on your snare. If it feels good you need a throne wit a back support.
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkyruss View Post
    Can you simulate that height with a regular chair before you commit to another throne only to find the height thing is not a solution? Big congrats to you and your new healthy lifestyle!!! Remember there are no hard and fast rules for this stuff, its whatever works for you.....
    Funny you said that since the next response (Slinglander) mentions the height of standard chairs! Thanks man, I definitely feel better and it's easier playing drums, too! I feel drums had a hand in it as I had started playing a lot more.

    For sure, though, it's about what works. So far, nothing is really working. I'll figure it out, though! Thanks for the help!

    Quote Originally Posted by slinglander View Post
    Most chairs have a top- of- cushion height of 16.5" -17" so test your need of a low seat with an armless chair or stool. Also check to see if you could use back support by sitting on your throne with your back against a wall and playing rudiments or something on your snare. If it feels good you need a throne wit a back support.
    Regarding regular chairs, I honestly think (considering I'm not on one now, so I'm kind of thinking about this) I get pretty parallel depending on certain chairs so I should figure this out. Regarding back support, this brings up the question of where you should be on the throne. Someone earlier mentioned sitting on the edge. I assumed that meant edge nearest the set, but now I'm thinking away from the set. Anyways, I know often I can tighten up my shoulders because of trying to keep my back straight, but then I just alleviate that so that might be of some help for sure! Thank you for the help and the tip on chair heights!

  13. #13

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    From experience you need a nice comfortable throne maybe with a back recliner also try and mess with your snare/drum kit height and like I always do specially playing festivals carry a measurement tape once you feel comfortable with the height of your throne and snare you can easily adjust to the same measurement,and most important practice your rudiments you will be surprise how that all helps your posture maybe you are over working your back I recommend the Moeller technique Jim chapin DVD I play extreme music and after gigs the next day I would feel beat with back aches after focusing on playing relaxed I realized I was just playing the wrong way -

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    I think your problems will be solved with a back rest. Adjust it as close to the back of the seat as possible so when you sit down it forces you to sit upright sitting back on the seat. What I believe is happening to you is your making a concerted effort to sit up straight. But it's not working and you are slouching over your drums which is stretching those big back muscles located in the middle of your back, hence the pain in your middle back seemingly around your spine. Sitting up straight makes all the other muscles in your back work in concert. Maybe look at a motorcycle style seat as well as it offers more butt support.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZackPomerleau View Post
    Funny you said that since the next response (Slinglander) mentions the height of standard chairs! Thanks man, I definitely feel better and it's easier playing drums, too! I feel drums had a hand in it as I had started playing a lot more.

    For sure, though, it's about what works. So far, nothing is really working. I'll figure it out, though! Thanks for the help!



    Regarding regular chairs, I honestly think (considering I'm not on one now, so I'm kind of thinking about this) I get pretty parallel depending on certain chairs so I should figure this out. Regarding back support, this brings up the question of where you should be on the throne. Someone earlier mentioned sitting on the edge. I assumed that meant edge nearest the set, but now I'm thinking away from the set. Anyways, I know often I can tighten up my shoulders because of trying to keep my back straight, but then I just alleviate that so that might be of some help for sure! Thank you for the help and the tip on chair heights!
    Quote Originally Posted by wolvie56 View Post
    I think your problems will be solved with a back rest. Adjust it as close to the back of the seat as possible so when you sit down it forces you to sit upright sitting back on the seat. What I believe is happening to you is your making a concerted effort to sit up straight. But it's not working and you are slouching over your drums which is stretching those big back muscles located in the middle of your back, hence the pain in your middle back seemingly around your spine. Sitting up straight makes all the other muscles in your back work in concert. Maybe look at a motorcycle style seat as well as it offers more butt support.
    Hey Zack. I took a screenshot taken from the most recent upload to your youtube channel. You mentioned that you tighten up your shoulders to keep your back straight and wolvie nailed it as to what's happening to your muscles in the middle of your back. As you play the kick drum, you lean forward (arrows) but you're compromising the muscles in your back.



    Pearl thrones look solid. Maybe the issue could be the need to build stronger stomach muscles to support your lower back. The height of your throne looks good by the looking at the videos. Lowering it may force you to slouch more?




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    Hey everyone, it seems the biggest recommendation is getting a backrest and/or possibly a bicycle throne. How are those different from standard circular thrones?

    late8, thanks for doing that. I in fact got some videos tonight at an angle where you can see the angle of my legs and back somewhat decently. At times you get see I kind of slouch but I'm still kind of straight regardless (like I'm not super curved). Here's one of the videos I got from tonight:


    The throne is at the lowest setting and I tried to keep my shoulders relaxed and sit straight. I do know I have a lower back issue that probably came from my weight issues that causes my posterior area to curve out (lumbar lordosis). I have asked my doctor about this and he says to fix it you need to strengthen your core. I wonder if this is related? An internet search brings up nothing about this. I just know that sitting brings pain in the middle of my back and sometimes my thighs. So if my core is weak this could explain it, but I still worry that my overall sitting angle is too high.

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    Hi Zack. The big difference I feel between a standard round throne verses a bicycle/tractor throne is how my thighs are supported. The tractor throne forces me to sit further back and my weight is off of my feet. Double bass drum pedals feel better for me on a tractor throne.

    A round throne forces me to sit on the edge of the cushion and my feet support more of my weight. I have a back rest on my tractor throne but I don't lean back during playing since my posture is typically prone to be forward towards the kit rather than sitting back. A back rest may help between song to let you relax but I seldom use it durning play.

    Strengthening your core muscles will help tremendously.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by late8 View Post
    Hi Zack. The big difference I feel between a standard round throne verses a bicycle/tractor throne is how my thighs are supported. The tractor throne forces me to sit further back and my weight is off of my feet. Double bass drum pedals feel better for me on a tractor throne.

    A round throne forces me to sit on the edge of the cushion and my feet support more of my weight. I have a back rest on my tractor throne but I don't lean back during playing since my posture is typically prone to be forward towards the kit rather than sitting back. A back rest may help between song to let you relax but I seldom use it durning play.

    Strengthening your core muscles will help tremendously.
    The funny thing is, if you notice in that video, I definitely don't sit near the edge at all! I have read some debating about that (even read some on my cellphone during the gig because I was trying to adjust how I was sitting) so I have been trying to figure this out. Essentially it sounds like the if I get a tractor throne the backrest is not important but could help with the circular throne?

  19. #19

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    Zack... man I remember your earlier posts about this problem and hate to hear you haven't resolved it yet. Many have mentioned a lower seat height. Uncommon to those posts, I can't sit low or my back will start hurting... I tend to sit up higher than most for my height. I think you will just have to keep going through trial and error to see what resolves for you.

    Some other things to think about, try...

    How long before your pain starts? If it's a reasonable time, say within 30 min, you could try some experiments...

    1) Sit on your throne and don't play... see if you get uncomfortable just sitting there.

    2) Sit and only play the kit with your hands/no feet involved... see if that triggers.

    3) Do the opposite... play only patterns using your feet.

    Maybe you can isolate more specifically what actions are causing you pain this way.

    A lot to be said about strengthening your core as well.

    Not sure where you are located... But if you live near one of the big box stores, GC, etc. You can always buy a throne brand/type, use it and return it if it doesn't work out for you. They usually have a 30 day return policy. I didn't think there would be much difference between thrones once you get past a certain price point. My opinion changed after using a Roc-n-soc throne for an extended rehearsal one time... wish I had spent the $ on that instead of what I currently have.

    Good luck and keep us updated.
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  20. #20

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    Maybe I should try sitting higher up but sometimes I almost feel like I have issues playing heel down as is, so that might not help very much.

    It's usually about 30 minutes though. I'll try going through things separately, but I do notice at times I have thigh pain so it might even be based on how I'm sitting. So it could be a lot of things.

    I actually live decently close to a Guitar Center so trying a Roc-n-Soc might help. They also go about an inch lower than the Pearl Roadster thrown, too. I have tried one before (blues jam, guy has one) but can't recall if it's the round or tractor throne, pretty sure the tractor. Something about the tractor style in my head throws me off but maybe it's the best choice? I also know the Pork Pie exists but that seat is huge!

    Kind of curious, people keep mentioning core strength. My doctor told me to do stretches. Is that what you guys recommend or are you guys thinking weightlifting and crunches?

    Quote Originally Posted by kickinit View Post
    Zack... man I remember your earlier posts about this problem and hate to hear you haven't resolved it yet. Many have mentioned a lower seat height. Uncommon to those posts, I can't sit low or my back will start hurting... I tend to sit up higher than most for my height. I think you will just have to keep going through trial and error to see what resolves for you.

    Some other things to think about, try...

    How long before your pain starts? If it's a reasonable time, say within 30 min, you could try some experiments...

    1) Sit on your throne and don't play... see if you get uncomfortable just sitting there.

    2) Sit and only play the kit with your hands/no feet involved... see if that triggers.

    3) Do the opposite... play only patterns using your feet.

    Maybe you can isolate more specifically what actions are causing you pain this way.

    A lot to be said about strengthening your core as well.

    Not sure where you are located... But if you live near one of the big box stores, GC, etc. You can always buy a throne brand/type, use it and return it if it doesn't work out for you. They usually have a 30 day return policy. I didn't think there would be much difference between thrones once you get past a certain price point. My opinion changed after using a Roc-n-soc throne for an extended rehearsal one time... wish I had spent the $ on that instead of what I currently have.

    Good luck and keep us updated.

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    Hey Zack -

    I saw your posture in the vid you posted and I think that your leg and back angles look ok. What I noticed was you do not sit on your "sit" bones but on the meaty portion of your back side. Recently I was reading about a drummer with a dilemma similar to yours - they fixed it by adjusting how they sit on the throne. I will not detail it here but look up "what are my sit bones" and you find what I believe will be helpful information. Essentially you need to scoot up on your throne a bit so that no part of Zack is sitting on ~the back third of the throne. Will be curious to know if this helps. Also I did not read every post in the thread so if this advice was already given - my bad!

    MM

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    Stomach muscles help to stabilize your back....if you have a disc issue crunches and weight lifting may be make things worse.....when my herniated disc was killing me, the worst thing was drumming..pain up and down kick drum leg...i kept drumming though, never stopped.....i wish i could tell you the magic answer that got me to where i am today, but it was maybe my chiropractor, magic, good luck just dont really know.....but it is much better than what it was, thankfully....my seat is such that my leg is more than 90* but not by much.....i found higher gave a bit of relief, rather than lower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeRoyale View Post
    Hey Zack -

    I saw your posture in the vid you posted and I think that your leg and back angles look ok. What I noticed was you do not sit on your "sit" bones but on the meaty portion of your back side. Recently I was reading about a drummer with a dilemma similar to yours - they fixed it by adjusting how they sit on the throne. I will not detail it here but look up "what are my sit bones" and you find what I believe will be helpful information. Essentially you need to scoot up on your throne a bit so that no part of Zack is sitting on ~the back third of the throne. Will be curious to know if this helps. Also I did not read every post in the thread so if this advice was already given - my bad!

    MM
    Thanks for the help! I'll try doing that. I actually tried scooting up and I just kept going back to where I was all night (just the habit). I think that might explain the thigh issue. People did mention moving forward, but I have HAVE heard about the "sit-bones" before, but never really considered it this time around. Thanks again!

    Quote Originally Posted by funkyruss View Post
    Stomach muscles help to stabilize your back....if you have a disc issue crunches and weight lifting may be make things worse.....when my herniated disc was killing me, the worst thing was drumming..pain up and down kick drum leg...i kept drumming though, never stopped.....i wish i could tell you the magic answer that got me to where i am today, but it was maybe my chiropractor, magic, good luck just dont really know.....but it is much better than what it was, thankfully....my seat is such that my leg is more than 90* but not by much.....i found higher gave a bit of relief, rather than lower.
    I have no disc issues, it's just curvature near the bottom portion of my back caused by weakening of muscles and such. It's caused by sedentary life style (sitting a lot) and other things. The way to fix it is to actually strengthen your core so I'm actually thinking this might be related! Here is the Wikipedia article on lordosis with a good picture of the issue. Essentially when you stand up straight your posterior area goes outward because muscles are weakened. I used to weight about 50-60 pounds more so that causes it, too.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lordosis

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    By the way guys, I just found this article How to improve posture with the Alexander Technique

    I can definitely see I'm sitting way back on my throne. I also can see I'm resting on my thighs even. He sits WAY lower, too, but that's just whatever. I'll try to sit more like that see how it works for me (not to mention get my core muscles strengthened). At some point I would like to get a throne that goes a little lower. This one goes to about 19.5" and the Roc-n-Socs go to about 18" so I think that might be perfect! Their short ones go all the way to 16" but they aren't the hydraulic ones (but maybe that'd be better, less to have break down?).

    Anyways, thanks for the tips everyone. If anyone else has anything to add I'll take them. I can see I have some things to work on and so far I have definitely found some very easy fixes!

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    Just an update. Repositioned myself as lots of people were saying I sit way too far back and that seems to help. I'm finding that middle back pain is still present, though, and I have been messing with my snare and hi-hat height. I'm not sure if the back pain is because of postural issues (I'm sitting straight and relaxing my shoulders and also pulling myself up making sure I'm not slouching...really engaging myself) or because of fatigue from those muscles never being engaged, or of throne height (seems unlikely, but I'm not sure...I did sit in some regular chairs and my legs are much closer to 90 degrees in them). My legs don't seem to hurt (got a gig this Thursday), so that'll be a good test of whether or not I'm getting anywhere.

    A question for you guys, do you find you are "relaxed" or that you really hold your back up firm and straight? If I try to "relax" it just goes into slouching. I hope I'm not just tensing up muscles, but it can be confusing when you sit straight it's never "relaxed" feeling.

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