View Poll Results: Do you place your China Lip Up or Lip Down?

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  • Lip Up

    6 13.64%
  • Lip Down

    38 86.36%
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Thread: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

  1. #26

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    I don't own one yet, but I vote lip down due to reasons mentioned above. Lip up seems like it would be easier to break the cymbal and certainly sticks. And I don't need any additional help breaking sticks.

    Tex

  2. #27

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    Lip down here. I would rather strike a larger radius, than the thin edge. I don't hit hard usually anyway, but why chance damaging a good cymbal. My 15" AAX Xtreme china is fairly loud, so a hard strike isn't really necessary. It's volume with a moderate strike fits in with the other cymbals, and isn't sonically over bearing.
    Mapex Drums / Ludwig Hardware / Sabian Cymbals / Tama Pedals & Hardware / Remo and Aquarian
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  3. #28

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    China's are on my "never will own" list, along with cowbells and metronomes.

    They are the worst sounding cymbals I've ever heard.

  4. #29

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    China's are on my "never will own" list, along with cowbells and metronomes.

    They are the worst sounding cymbals I've ever heard.
    BLASPHEMY RICK. LOL. I love a good china. I probably used mine too often.

  5. #30

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    Quote Originally Posted by marko138 View Post
    BLASPHEMY RICK. LOL. I love a good china. I probably used mine too often.
    I'm with you on this one Marko

    Viva la China Cymbal
    19pc Yamaha Maple Custom Vintage | 10pc PDP X7 Sparkle Orange | 9pc Ludwig Jr. wine red | 8pc Pork Pie ZebraWood | 6pc Sonor | 5pc Orbitone | 39 Snare drums and growing!

  6. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by spazapproved View Post
    i'm with you on this one marko

    viva la china cymbal
    +1!
    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    There is intelligent life out there. The problem is that there isn't any here.

    -Mike

  7. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpazApproved View Post
    I'm with you on this one Marko

    Viva la China Cymbal
    YEEEEEEEE HAW! lol.

  8. #33

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    I couldn't imagine my setup without a china. Having 3 (4 if we include the one in a stack) plus another on the way I'm definitely a fan. Although these are all very thin and not as clangy as most. I think with the exception of the one in my stack, they'd all crack pretty quickly if I was a hard hitter. My 18" works great for a unique ride tone as well, either with the tip or shoulder of the stick at a low to medium volume.

  9. #34

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    Lip down for regular Chinas. But I have a 10" China King that I use as a mid-stack with a 10" Splash that I have lip up, but it makes more sense for that type of thing.

  10. #35

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    I'm a downer. Pun very intended.

    GeeDeeEmm

  11. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    China's are on my "never will own" list, along with cowbells and metronomes.

    They are the worst sounding cymbals I've ever heard.
    LoL

    I think about all the newspapers I delivered in freezing cold so I could save up and buy cymbals that didn't sound like "trash"!!!
    45+ years drumming...never owned one

    all the best...

  12. #37

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    Quote Originally Posted by kay-gee View Post
    LoL

    I think about all the newspapers I delivered in freezing cold so I could save up and buy cymbals that didn't sound like "trash"!!!
    45+ years drumming...never owned one

    all the best...
    Ha! Seriously, though, chinas don't have to sound trashy. As I described in another thread, I found a lovely 60s - 70s era Zildjian A Swish that I would not trade for anything. It's not "trashy" at all - it's "oriental," in the best sense of the word. When i play it, I don't cringe or wince at all. For all practical purposes it sounds like a nice A crash ride cymbal with just a hint of the oriental-sounding white noise in the background, while the crash sound is paramount. To me, this is what the china sound is all about.

    Rick, I must say I don't understand your aversion to cowbells and metronomes. Some of the songs I play were not only originally recorded with cowbell, but just demand it. Imagine Honky Tonk Woman without a cowbell on the intro. Or We're An American Band. The cowbell powerfully drives songs like these.

    And I find a metronome to be an invaluable tool. Right now there is one sitting on the desk in front of my monitor. I used it yesterday to establish the tempo on 25 songs that my band will be playing for our class reunion in June. Band members will have no reason to complain that any song feels too fast or too slow to them - the tempo was taken from the original recordings! Argue with the songwriter, bud! So I will use the metronome to set the tempo on our upcoming reunion. But that's all it will be used for in a live situation. Once we begin a song, the metronome is turned off. I also use it to check my practicing and to determine whether I'm rushing or dragging. Yes, after fifty years of playing I still want to make sure.

    GeeDeeEmm

  13. #38

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    Chinas don't sound bad or anything. I'm just not really an effects cymbal kind of guy. I'm such a minimalist in my set up, that I tend to focus on the bread and butter items. Ride, crash, and hats.

    all the best...

  14. #39

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    I love China cymbals. I have 5 currently but only use 3 in my current set up. I do a lot of accenting and the China comes in handy for that. I guess it depends on your playing style. I've seen quite a few drummers that don't use China's.

    The cowbell, I can take it or leave it. I don't use it muck at all , but I do have one incase it's needed. A couple songs I like to play that require a cowbell is Deep Purples You Fool No One, and Rainbows Still I'm Sad. Very similar songs. Just isn't the same without it.


    http://youtu.be/vXTopchIrNY

    http://youtu.be/hRpsA-UvJDg

  15. #40

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    I've seen quite a few drummers that don't use China's.
    Yeah, like just about every drummer up until into the 90's or so.

    all the best...

  16. #41

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    Quote Originally Posted by gdmoore28 View Post
    Ha! Seriously, though, chinas don't have to sound trashy. As I described in another thread, I found a lovely 60s - 70s era Zildjian A Swish that I would not trade for anything. It's not "trashy" at all - it's "oriental," in the best sense of the word. When i play it, I don't cringe or wince at all. For all practical purposes it sounds like a nice A crash ride cymbal with just a hint of the oriental-sounding white noise in the background, while the crash sound is paramount. To me, this is what the china sound is all about.

    Rick, I must say I don't understand your aversion to cowbells and metronomes. Some of the songs I play were not only originally recorded with cowbell, but just demand it. Imagine Honky Tonk Woman without a cowbell on the intro. Or We're An American Band. The cowbell powerfully drives songs like these.

    And I find a metronome to be an invaluable tool. Right now there is one sitting on the desk in front of my monitor. I used it yesterday to establish the tempo on 25 songs that my band will be playing for our class reunion in June. Band members will have no reason to complain that any song feels too fast or too slow to them - the tempo was taken from the original recordings! Argue with the songwriter, bud! So I will use the metronome to set the tempo on our upcoming reunion. But that's all it will be used for in a live situation. Once we begin a song, the metronome is turned off. I also use it to check my practicing and to determine whether I'm rushing or dragging. Yes, after fifty years of playing I still want to make sure.

    GeeDeeEmm

    I'm leaving the China's out of this.

    Cowbells! I was asked to audition for a band back in the early '70's. I've mentioned them several times over my years here on DC. They were a husband and wife led band that was a really good band, getting good gigs, and making good money. The problem was that they hated each other, but worked together because of the money. ( When I worked with them, what I was making a night for myself was more than most bar bands were making for the band)

    Anyway, I went to their rehearsal hall, brought my set in (they helped) and set them up. The husband comes over looks at my set and asked where the cowbell was. I told him I don't play those miserable sounding things and he said that I have to have 1 because they use it in some songs.

    I started taking my set apart and he looked at me like surprised that a cowbell could be a deal-breaker, which I told him it was. His wife came over, asked what the problem was, told her husband that she would play the damn cowbell because "they needed me on drums". That surprised me cause I figured they would just get another drummer with a cowbell.

    Everybody in the band that was with them from the beginning, (I was the only "new addition"), knew that the band was on the road to self destruction, which happened about a year after I joined it. (I know, long story about cowbells)

    Metronomes! Never owned 1, never used 1, even recording.

    Most people here know how I feel about 'nomes. They "lock" you in timing-wise to a medium that has a flow to it. If a song starts at 90 BPM and ends at 95 BPM, nobody cares. If a song starts at 90 BPM and ends at 110 BPM, the drummer needs a different job. I've ( and lord knows I've said this several times) never seen anybody bring a 'nome into a club and time a band.


    "A metronome only provides a fixed, rigid, relentless pulse; therefore any metronome markings on sheet music cannot accurately communicate the pulse, swing, or groove of music: The pulse is often not regular;[33] e.g. in accelerando, rallentando; or in musical expression as in phrasing (rubato, etc.).

    Some argue that a metronomic performance stands in conflict with an expressive culturally-aware performance of music, so that a metronome is in this respect a very limited tool. Even such highly rhythmical musical forms as Samba, if performed in correct cultural style, cannot be captured with the beats of a metronome.[34][35]

    A style of performance that is unfailingly regular rhythmically may be criticized as being "metronomic."

    Many notable composers, including Felix Mendelssohn, Richard Wagner, Giuseppe Verdi and Johannes Brahms, have criticised the use of the metronome.[36]"


    "A good performance is so full of these minute retardations and accelerations that hardly two measures will occupy exactly the same time. It is notorious that to play with the metronome is to play mechanically - the reason being, of course, that we are then playing by the measure, or rather by the beat, instead of by the phrase. A keen musical instinct revolts at playing even a single measure with the metronome: mathematical exactitude gives us a dead body in place of the living musical organism with its ebb and flow of rhythmical energy. It may therefore be suggested, in conclusion, that the use of the metronome, even to determine the average rate of speed, is dangerous.[39]"

    —Daniel Gregory Mason


    I do not take the above as gospel, but it shows that I'm not the only 1 who has "reservations" about 'nomes.
    In 40-45 years of playing in bands, I've heard it all: too loud, too soft, too much drums, not enough drums, but, never once was my timing called into question, and I've never touched a 'nome.

  17. #42

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    DOWN...hated looking at that sharp edge and thinking...that could be my finger someday..blood and and stuff....
    Enjoy the Music!

    HOOKED ON VINTAGE ROGERS

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    LP Cowbell baby..always more cowbell

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  18. #43

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    Rick. I'm surprised at your aversion to the lowly cowbell. After all, I've seen many pix and vids of your hero with a cowbell in the 12 o'clock position on his bass drum. I recall a vid I saw a short time ago, where he even gave it a few "tink tinks" during a solo.

    all the best...

  19. #44

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    Rick,
    All of your points on metronome use are well taken. But the key to metro use is not being addicted to it. My favorite use, as I stated, is using the box to set the tempo at the beginning of a song. Then, nobody in the band can complain that the song was too fast or too slow. Talk to the box!

    GeeDeeEmm

  20. #45

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    Rick...how bout when you play " Mississippi Queen? cowbell? or just not play it..what I do sometimes is incorporate my cowbell with rim shot playing....it extenuates the sound..but from your post...I can see it will not happen..that's cool....we are all different and that is a good thing.
    Enjoy the Music!

    HOOKED ON VINTAGE ROGERS

    12 tom times 2
    13 tom times 2
    16 floor tom times 2
    22 BD times 2
    Dyna-sonic snare 1976
    Dyna-sonic snare 1969
    24 x 12 Djembe

    21" K Hybrid custom ride
    21" Avedis ride
    18" A Custom Zildjian fast crash
    17" A Custom Zildjian med crash
    15" A Custom Zildjian Reso hats
    10" A Custom fast splash
    18" A Custom China
    LP Cowbell baby..always more cowbell

    Member of "PHROGGES AQUARIAN ARMY"
    The Zildjian League

    Drum Chat's Record for Most Users Online
    BE COUNTED!

  21. #46

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyM View Post
    Rick...how bout when you play " Mississippi Queen? cowbell? or just not play it..what I do sometimes is incorporate my cowbell with rim shot playing....it extenuates the sound..but from your post...I can see it will not happen..that's cool....we are all different and that is a good thing.
    ...and a nice quarter note cowbell groove can really push just about any R&B type song.

    Just another sound source that is neither a drum nor a cymbal, takes up no room, yet is very percussive.

    all the best...

  22. #47

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    Quote Originally Posted by kay-gee View Post
    Rick. I'm surprised at your aversion to the lowly cowbell. After all, I've seen many pix and vids of your hero with a cowbell in the 12 o'clock position on his bass drum. I recall a vid I saw a short time ago, where he even gave it a few "tink tinks" during a solo.

    all the best...
    KG, I know there were times where he had a cowbell on his set, but, having seen him play live so many times, I can tell you that even if it was there, he very rarely used it.

    Quote Originally Posted by gdmoore28 View Post
    Rick,
    All of your points on metronome use are well taken. But the key to metro use is not being addicted to it. My favorite use, as I stated, is using the box to set the tempo at the beginning of a song. Then, nobody in the band can complain that the song was too fast or too slow. Talk to the box!

    GeeDeeEmm
    GDM, I don't know when you started playing gigs. I started in 1961 and nobody, used any kind of timing device to set the tempo of a song. Maybe in a studio, but not live, at least not in those days.

    A drummer should have a innate sense of time that precludes the need for a "get you started" toy.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyM View Post
    Rick...how bout when you play " Mississippi Queen? cowbell? or just not play it..what I do sometimes is incorporate my cowbell with rim shot playing....it extenuates the sound..but from your post...I can see it will not happen..that's cool....we are all different and that is a good thing.
    If we played a song that "had" to have a cowbell, and there were a few, somebody else, usually our backup singer hit it. I can't say played it because how can something that sounds like crap be played.

    Quote Originally Posted by kay-gee View Post
    ...and a nice quarter note cowbell groove can really push just about any R&B type song.

    Just another sound source that is neither a drum nor a cymbal, takes up no room, yet is very percussive.

    all the best...
    A nice blonde in a grove can push just about anything that needs pushing. They can also supply great percussion at any time.

  23. #48

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    Down. I shoulder mine with a light, glancing blow. It's a lot easier on the cymbal (and sticks!) and I still get a good sound and volume (my noise-hating family members yell at me whenever I hit my china ) from it.

    (Of course, my china is far from my loudest cymbal, a fact I love to "point out" when my relatives yell about my china. )
    "It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt" - Abraham Lincoln

    Have drums, will travel.

    WARNING: Practical joke-playing drummer ahead!

  24. #49

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    Well, after seeing this thread, I decided to try lip up with my 17in holy china. Sure enough, I put a small crack on the lip. I'm happy it's not the China that I use often, and it still sounds okay, but lip down for my China cymbals for this day and forever on.

  25. #50

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    Default Re: Lets talk Chinas.. Lip up or down?

    The "China" cymbal was built to be played lip down. The description "inverted bell" is what tells anyone who can read exactly how to mount one. These "i think outside the box" types who mount their China's upside down should turn their other cymbals upside down too. At $300-400 a pop, I keep the edges out of the strike zone.

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