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Thread: Try tuning or different heads?

  1. #1

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    Default Try tuning or different heads?

    Hey guys, more newbie questions:

    I'm not 100% happy with my drum sounds. I opted for 2-ply everywhere (except resos) and starting to second-guess myself.

    All I know about drums is mainly from playing guitar with drummers and hanging with drummer friends talking gear. I like the sounds of my jazzer friends much more than the rock guys.

    Here's my issue: my kit seems to sound best when played loud.

    When I bought the thing, it had single ply batters on all but 1 tom. They rang like nobody's business and I didn't care for that sound. So I figured some judicious use of pre-dampened heads would help. Changing first my snare, I loved the HD Dry. Then got EC2's for my toms. They do sound pretty good. Then got the EMAD2 and finding it tougher to dial in.

    Now I can't pretend I have tried a lot of different tunings OR that I know what I'm doing... I just want to be able to get a more lively response using light touch. Trying to use the right adjectives, there seems to be more attack than I want to hear. It's possible that 2-ply heads are not for me, or that pre-dampened was the worng choice. I intend to try other heads eventually but the current batters are practically new. Can't justify blowing more cash just yet.

    Last comment is that I do notice a lot of ring gets buried in the mix while playing and maybe a certain amount is really aceptable? Surely this effect is increased with other instruments playing (I only noodle alone in my basement).

    So I'm very curious to try some coated single ply heads, maybe fiberskyn or soemthing (and eventually will). Or possibly I can get closer to what I want by tuning differently?

    Help a young & naive brother out! Thanks [EDIT: Wait a second, I'm not young]
    Last edited by Natman; 09-02-2016 at 09:21 AM.
    Taye Tourperformer, PDP Hammered bronze snare, 15" Diril Primitive hats, 17" XPlosion, 10" duo splash, 15" Xtreme china, 22" HHX Omni, 7" cup chime, Yamaha 9415 w. Vickicks

  2. #2

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    Default Re: Try tuning or different heads?

    Ok I'll see what I can do...yes drums sound better when played loud....they're drums!!!

    I think that if you want livelier drums with a lighter touch, go back to single ply...yes ring gets buried in the mix, i strive for long tones, but I'm crazy..!
    This may also sound weird but can you turn your drums 180* in the space? The acoustics of your room may be the biggest factor...

  3. #3

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    If you know of a drum shop near where you live, you can test drive some heads.
    Sounds to me like you would like coated Ambos with "zero rings" added.

    At a drum shop you could hear various heads with and without the rings.

    With two-ply batters on your toms, you have to hit them with some conviction; I don't mean beat them to death, but you mention "light" playing and I've never found a two-ply to be cooperative with that technique.
    You could try to tighten up all the tom batters and see if you like the sound better.
    Gretsch USA & Zildjian
    (What Else Would I Ever Need ?)


  4. #4

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    Default Re: Try tuning or different heads?

    Umm.......

    What kind of drums are they, which wood are they made of?
    "The problem with information on the Internet is that you can not validate it's authenticity. " -Abraham Lincoln

    SILVERFOX DRUMSTICKS & SOULTONE CYMBALS Endorsing Artist.

  5. #5

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    My shells are mahogany and basswood.

    I took the EQ patch off the bass batter and tightened up the reso a 1/4 turn. I also reduced the dampening on my reso (felt strip). That seems to have helped and I like the tone I'm getting.

    For toms, I found that my 12" had more difference between batter and reso and this seemed to limit the sustain. Sounds better now that I got them matched. I think my batter heads have just stretched since I tuned them up a couple months ago? I'm going to have to sit down and re-tune everything.

    At this point I don't think the heads are a problem. They sound plenty good enough and I'll definitely try single ply next but I also notice differences in stick type & material. I had been using Los Cabos red hickory Jazz sticks and recently grabbed the maple version. The balance is very different between the 2 and it has an impact on what I hear.
    Taye Tourperformer, PDP Hammered bronze snare, 15" Diril Primitive hats, 17" XPlosion, 10" duo splash, 15" Xtreme china, 22" HHX Omni, 7" cup chime, Yamaha 9415 w. Vickicks

  6. #6

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    I'd wager that 90% of your problem is just a tuning issue. Do you use a drum tuner or anything of that sort?

    Fiberskyn heads are very ringy if I recall correctly.. you may not like them. They are meant to be tuned to higher pitches, so you should consider that when using them... You aren't going to get that thick rock sound with a fiberskyn head.

    Single ply coated heads I like, but again, don't expect a huge 'thud' when you hit them. Single ply coated with dampening rings may be a better choice.. more thud without the thicker head.

    Not really sure what to tell you.. not really sure what the question was!
    Too Much Stuff.

  7. #7

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    Default Re: Try tuning or different heads?

    I have gone through the same issues as you are going through. When I first got my maples they came with the stock coated Remo amb/amb and I did not like that open sound needed to tame them down a little.
    The I went for the coated G2/amb and they started to sound good but not to my liking.
    Then I went for the clear G2's/amb and the sound was great but something was missing so I added a few pieces of moo ngel on them and wow what a difference.
    Then the EC2's came on the market so I figures with their edge control they would sound the same as my 2ply but without the moon gel.
    To shorten this I basically went for the EC2's over the EC reso and have kept that way since and just love the sound of my maples.
    Also like to mention Los Cabos stick are great I have been using both hickory and maple for years and love them. They are affordable, durable and comfortable.
    So it will take you some time and experimenting to find the right head and tuning for your kit. Good luck.

  8. #8

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    If you find the single-ply heads too ringy but still want the response, consider one with some internal dampening. Aquarian Focus X for example. They do keep a little resonance still, but it is tamed down a lot from a fully open head.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Natman View Post
    My shells are mahogany and basswood.

    I took the EQ patch off the bass batter and tightened up the reso a 1/4 turn. I also reduced the dampening on my reso (felt strip). That seems to have helped and I like the tone I'm getting.

    For toms, I found that my 12" had more difference between batter and reso and this seemed to limit the sustain. Sounds better now that I got them matched. I think my batter heads have just stretched since I tuned them up a couple months ago? I'm going to have to sit down and re-tune everything.

    At this point I don't think the heads are a problem. They sound plenty good enough and I'll definitely try single ply next but I also notice differences in stick type & material. I had been using Los Cabos red hickory Jazz sticks and recently grabbed the maple version. The balance is very different between the 2 and it has an impact on what I hear.
    You're learning the most valuable drum lesson; experiment and learn how things work! Shells, heads, tuning, pitch seperation......they all play off one another. Getting the sound you want is like solving an equation with 5 variables.
    -Brian

    "Too many crappy used drum stuff to list"

    Play the SONG......not the DRUMS!!!

    "I think that feeling is a lot more important than technique. It's all very well doing a triple paradiddle - but who's going to know you've done it? If you play technically you sound like everybody else. It's being original that counts." ~ John Bonham

  10. #10

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    I didn't read the entire story... but instantly I read you used 2ply but said you like the jazzier sound more than rock...

    I would start over with Evans G1 Coated heads

  11. #11

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    I agree with Zach go back to single coated and work up from there till you find that jazzy sound.

  12. #12

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    I see we are back to rocket science..............................again.

    The heads of today have a wide tuning range, wider than most drummers realize.

    Go back and listen to music from 40-50 years ago. Listen to all the different sounds that drummers got out of basically 1 style head. There wasn't 20+ companies out there making 20+ types of heads.

    Get out the tuning key and go tune. Odds are good you will find a sound that works for you and you won't have to go broke buying heads. Keep in mind that when you move them, the sound will change, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot, depending on where they are moved to.

    Don't let it make you nuts. Tune them and play them.

  13. #13

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    Rick, don't forget not everyone here is from our era (60-70's) where we had minimum choices of drum heads . Nowadays like you said so many different companies and thickness of heads that it is confusing for a newbie or even us old guys lol. Trying to produce the sound that the bands have today is another challenge. Just sayin

  14. #14

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    I sometimes fall into negative periods, when no matter what I do I don't like the sound of my drums. One day recently I had someone sit in for me for a little while, and when I heard my drums from the audience, they sounded great.
    Life's too short to play the same solo twice. Improvise!

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pearl MCX Man View Post
    I agree with Zach go back to single coated and work up from there till you find that jazzy sound.
    Ditto
    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    There is intelligent life out there. The problem is that there isn't any here.

    -Mike

  16. #16

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    Having played in a jazz band in college, numerous jams, mainly in NYC, and I would hit the "jazz" clubs from the 1/2 Note, the 1/4 Note, the Village Vanguard, the Limelight, Buddy's Place, etc, etc, etc,.

    I've seen Max, whose drums sounded different from Elvin's, whose drums sounded different from Chico Hamilton's. Chico's drums sounded different from Morello's, Morello's sounded different from Belson's, and Belson's sounded different from Rich's, and Buddy's didn't sound good at all.

    If I was to play (which isn't going to happen as I'm not exactly in a hot bed of musicians), in a R&R band, I wouldn't change the tuning on my drums. Same goes for a jazz band.

    So I want to know exactly what a "jazzy" sounding set of drums sounds like. It's a catch 22.

  17. #17

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    I think of the higher tuned tight head sounds of classic jazz.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    Having played in a jazz band in college, numerous jams, mainly in NYC, and I would hit the "jazz" clubs from the 1/2 Note, the 1/4 Note, the Village Vanguard, the Limelight, Buddy's Place, etc, etc, etc,.

    I've seen Max, whose drums sounded different from Elvin's, whose drums sounded different from Chico Hamilton's. Chico's drums sounded different from Morello's, Morello's sounded different from Belson's, and Belson's sounded different from Rich's, and Buddy's didn't sound good at all.

    If I was to play (which isn't going to happen as I'm not exactly in a hot bed of musicians), in a R&R band, I wouldn't change the tuning on my drums. Same goes for a jazz band.

    So I want to know exactly what a "jazzy" sounding set of drums sounds like. It's a catch 22.
    Of courses there will always be differences same as in cigars, scotch, cars etc...

    But there still remains an underlying quality that lends to a "jazzy" sound the same way there's a country sound, a rock sound, or jazz sound on guitar.

    Jazz drum sound TYPICALLY (of course there are exceptions) is a more open "faster" sound. Like a little melodic hollow resonance that lingers a bit following that initial stick contact. I believe this helps facilitate brush playing (not a big thing in rock) Brushes sound better on a pizza box than they do on drums with thick 2 ply heads.

    Only an observation on my part

    all the best...

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    I want to know exactly what a "jazzy" sounding set of drums sounds like. It's a catch 22.
    You're so right about this, Rick, as it's all different and it's all subjective. That's also what makes it so confusing and overwhelming at times.

    When I think of a jazzy drum sound, I think more tone and resonance, almost like a musical note. However, When I think of a rock sound, Its all about the attack and less sustain.

    Natman:
    Everyone's ears are different, but you're on the right track here. Tune your toms so that the reso and batter heads are matching in tone. That tone, or pitch, is up to you.
    Moving to the snare, The snare side should typically be tighter than the batter.
    Jazz bass drums sound (to me) like a boooomm and rock is more like a thud. Kinda like when you slug your buddy in the arm. LOL!
    Kevin
    DW Performance series - Gun Metal Metallic Lacquer
    24/12/16 6.5x14
    Sabian AA/AAX hi-hats & crashes
    Sabian HHX Evolution ride

    Drummers can be very tempomental.....

  20. #20

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    "Jazz bass drums sound (to me) like a boooomm and rock is more like a thud. Kinda like when you slug your buddy in the arm. LOL!"


    Kevin, that is about the best technical explanation of the difference in sound between a "jazz" BD and a "R&R" BD that has ever been written.

    Just messin' with you. I do know what you mean, but I have heard it in the reverse.

    I remember a guy on a drum forum that I was on (then off) that wanted his snare to sound like "bbbbbuuuuuz" instead of (you'll love this) "pudapudapudapudapudapudapuda".

    When I 1st read that, I almost fell of my chair laughing. My warning came when I wrote back "Fool, do you want to clarify that".

    The thing is that there is no definitive sound that would be exclusive to either genre. You may like brunettes and I (definitely) like blondes, but you would take a good looking blonde the same way I would take a good looking brunette, and we would make it work.

    If my analogy makes no sense to you, don't worry, it didn't make sense to me after I wrote it and sent it.

  21. #21

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    I've been told that the reason Jazz bass drums are traditionally smaller & tuned higher is because the bigger drums and lower pitches interfere with the frequency of a stand-up string bass.
    -Brian

    "Too many crappy used drum stuff to list"

    Play the SONG......not the DRUMS!!!

    "I think that feeling is a lot more important than technique. It's all very well doing a triple paradiddle - but who's going to know you've done it? If you play technically you sound like everybody else. It's being original that counts." ~ John Bonham

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    The thing is that there is no definitive sound that would be exclusive to either genre. You may like brunettes and I (definitely) like blondes, but you would take a good looking blonde the same way I would take a good looking brunette, and we would make it work.
    That's why there are redheads, my friend! LOL
    Kevin
    DW Performance series - Gun Metal Metallic Lacquer
    24/12/16 6.5x14
    Sabian AA/AAX hi-hats & crashes
    Sabian HHX Evolution ride

    Drummers can be very tempomental.....

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by N2Bluz View Post
    I've been told that the reason Jazz bass drums are traditionally smaller & tuned higher is because the bigger drums and lower pitches interfere with the frequency of a stand-up string bass.
    Interesting. I've never liked tiny kick drums.
    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    There is intelligent life out there. The problem is that there isn't any here.

    -Mike

  24. #24

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    Ah yes, the blonde, brunette, and redhead triumvirate.

    [URL=http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/rickjohnson1drummer/media/thCI3K80KL_zps45ytmlym.jpg.html]

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by N2Bluz View Post
    I've been told that the reason Jazz bass drums are traditionally smaller & tuned higher is because the bigger drums and lower pitches interfere with the frequency of a stand-up string bass.
    Actually in the beginning bass drums were huge and stand up bass was the only bass except for a tuba.

    I always heard the be bop size drums came out of the necessity for portability. NYC was the hot bed of be bop development and the artists lived in small places and used cabs to and fro for gigs.

    Having said that though, it's true in jazz the bass drum and bass are much less connected. While bass walks 4 to the bar, the bass drum accents in comping. The bass drum does 4 to the bar for bass solos. Typical, but not a hard and fast rule.

    all the best...

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