7 stroke rolls

[bassist learning drums]

I have been practicing my short rolls. One thing I want to know. For example the 7 stroke roll. RR LL RR L. Hand to hand is RR LL RR L LL RR LL R. Would I be violating rules if I played it hand to hand as RR LL RR LLL RR LL RRR LL RR L etc??? When I first practice rudiments, I play them slow to learn the sound(phrase). When they get faster I think of my hands, but count the numbers on the hand. Is this something that could develop a bad habit? It's 7,10,11, and 15 have the start of the other hand on the last of the previous. Are there any tricks to get it a little more smooth?

[fiacovaz]

BLD...the 7-stroke roll is played as a continuous roll ... written and played as RLLRRLL. It is played as a continuous roll with the accent on the down beat: 1 e + a 2 e + a
R ll rr ll R ll rr ll

It is also played as 8th note with 16th note triplet:

1 +TL 2 +TL
R llrrll 2 llrrll

This is the only way the 7 - stroke roll is played. Of course, you can start it with the left hand but it follows the same format. Variations may occassionally be written but, Rudimentally speaking, it is as I cited here. Each of the open stroke rudimental rolls is written very specifically and for definite duration of beats. The 9-stroke roll is one full beat in duration 1 e + a 2 with the double stroke on the 1e+a count and single stroke on the 2. Trying to count the number of strokes on your hands while playing is hard. The easiest approach is to know the "Count" and play it as such. The 10-stroke roll is counted as 1e+a2e 1e+a2e etc. with the double strokes on the 1e+a and the single strokes on the 2e and the accents on "2e". It's hard explaing this without actually writing the music notation. Keep in mind that the Rudiments are Universal sticking patterns. Originally, there ar the 25 Strube Rudiments of drumming. These were expanded upon in the late 70's and 80's to the current 40 Rudiments due primarily to the Drum corps infuence.

[bassist learning drums]

BLD...the 7-stroke roll is played as a continuous roll ... written and played as RLLRRLL. It is played as a continuous roll with the accent on the down beat: 1 e + a 2 e + a
R ll rr ll R ll rr ll

It is also played as 8th note with 16th note triplet:

1 +TL 2 +TL
R llrrll 2 llrrll

This is the only way the 7 - stroke roll is played. Of course, you can start it with the left hand but it follows the same format. Variations may occassionally be written but, Rudimentally speaking, it is as I cited here. Each of the open stroke rudimental rolls is written very specifically and for definite duration of beats.

I can play it smoothly with either a right or left hand lead, but when I play it Hand to Hand, that is where I get sloppy. My PAC rudiment does show what you wrote. So, bottom line the sticking is played the same depending on what hand leads.
I just thought to play hand to hand, I could come up with a learning device to help. Thanks for explaining. You are THE one that I like to say helps learn theory. Thank you!

[fiacovaz]

A PS: For those who may wonder why the strict adherence to Rudiment sticking...it's because in the early days of instruction, players were taught the Rudiments first. In most instances the concept of Reading music did not enter this. The drumline instructor called out the series of Rudiments and the players played...e.g 5-stroke, tap-flam, tap flam, flamacue-tap-flam. Seriously, this was how it was done and all the drumming was learned by "Rote." It took a very long time because they had to know which Flam to play, RH flam or LH flam etc. Eventually, learning how to Read was the only practical answer. I know this because I played in a Drum corps that was instructed this way. When the drumline members saw that I could "Sight read" the music, they insisted on learning how to Read.

[Bish]

A PS: For those who may wonder why the strict adherence to Rudiment sticking...it's because in the early days of instruction, players were taught the Rudiments first. In most instances the concept of Reading music did not enter this. The drumline instructor called out the series of Rudiments and the players played...e.g 5-stroke, tap-flam, tap flam, flamacue-tap-flam. Seriously, this was how it was done and all the drumming was learned by "Rote." It took a very long time because they had to know which Flam to play, RH flam or LH flam etc. Eventually, learning how to Read was the only practical answer. I know this because I played in a Drum corps that was instructed this way. When the drumline members saw that I could "Sight read" the music, they insisted on learning how to Read.

And when you decide to start teaching, sign me up!

[pastor_bob]

Frank, your students were truly fortunate!

[fiacovaz]

And when you decide to start teaching, sign me up!

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Bish, that says a lot coming from you...as I would love to learn from you...thanks.

[fiacovaz]

Frank, your students were truly fortunate!

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Thanks, PB...I love drumming and wish to perpetuate it anyway that I can.

[pastor_bob]

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Thanks, PB...I love drumming and wish to perpetuate it anyway that I can.

That comes through loud and clear Frank! Kudos!

[mkennedy]

BLD...the 7-stroke roll is played as a continuous roll ... written and played as RLLRRLL. It is played as a continuous roll with the accent on the down beat: 1 e + a 2 e + a
R ll rr ll R ll rr ll

It is also played as 8th note with 16th note triplet:

1 +TL 2 +TL
R llrrll 2 llrrll

This is the only way the 7 - stroke roll is played. Of course, you can start it with the left hand but it follows the same format. Variations may occassionally be written but, Rudimentally speaking, it is as I cited here. Each of the open stroke rudimental rolls is written very specifically and for definite duration of beats. The 9-stroke roll is one full beat in duration 1 e + a 2 with the double stroke on the 1e+a count and single stroke on the 2. Trying to count the number of strokes on your hands while playing is hard. The easiest approach is to know the "Count" and play it as such. The 10-stroke roll is counted as 1e+a2e 1e+a2e etc. with the double strokes on the 1e+a and the single strokes on the 2e and the accents on "2e". It's hard explaing this without actually writing the music notation. Keep in mind that the Rudiments are Universal sticking patterns. Originally, there ar the 25 Strube Rudiments of drumming. These were expanded upon in the late 70's and 80's to the current 40 Rudiments due primarily to the Drum corps infuence.

fiacovaz,
Are you sure that you have the sticking right for the seven stroke roll? You posted that it STARTS with the single. Anywhere I've seen it, it's been three sets of alternating doubles ending with a single - RRLLRRL.

[fiacovaz]

[QUOTE=mkennedy;124733]fiacovaz,
Are you sure that you have the sticking right for the seven stroke roll? You posted that it STARTS with the single. Anywhere I've seen it, it's been three sets of alternating doubles ending with a single - RRLLRRL.[/QUOT******************

What you have written is the inversion of the 7 - stroke roll...as I mentioned, there are variations but the Rudiment itself is the accented single stroke followed by the doubles. When played in a steady cadence, it has the effect of a being like a continuous roll with the exception of the accented stroke on the downbeat.

[ratmycue]

hey Bld, Frank is bang on with his explanation buddy,make sure you learn the standard rudiments as they are written first and foremost, with the correct sticking. on a pad or single snare.
Down the road when you approach fills on the kit , then I would look at possible variations for hand placement or incorporating the feet within the rudiment/fill etc. Learning the rudiments correctly really will speed your learning and unlike some peeps think, it will actually get your creative juices flowing on kit play.
keep at it, it sounds like you have the desire and dedication to work through them tough rudiments, all the best.

[fiacovaz]

OK. Cool. I'm by no means an expert on the rudiments and I thought you may have just missed a keystroke while typing it out because you seem to know what you're talking about a whole lot more than me! LOL. Thanks for the clarification.

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You're cool...glad to know that you are applying yourself to the Rudiments. I had lessons every week for 6 years and my Teacher was adamant on teaching us how to read music first and then the Rudiments. I worked at it very hard and have kept it with me all this time. I also played in Drum Corps and instructed Drum coprs and high school drum lines. Any place you can find Rudiment practice is great. If possible, you would be wise to ally with a good Teacher...the lessons and mentoring are invaluable.

[bassist learning drums]

hey Bld, Frank is bang on with his explanation buddy,make sure you learn the standard rudiments as they are written first and foremost, with the correct sticking. on a pad or single snare.
Down the road when you approach fills on the kit , then I would look at possible variations for hand placement or incorporating the feet within the rudiment/fill etc. Learning the rudiments correctly really will speed your learning and unlike some peeps think, it will actually get your creative juices flowing on kit play.
keep at it, it sounds like you have the desire and dedication to work through them tough rudiments, all the best.

Thanks Rat! I have noticed a more controlled sticking since I have been put more effort into practicing on the pad. I have been watching Vanz Drumming and Ginger Baker's Dvds lately. Both demonstrate rudiments in theory and application. Randy Van Patten really gives me an inspiration to play the pad.
I am just picking rudiments of the chart and learning them. Playing them slowly at first, then working them with a metronome not at haphazard speeds(yet), but enough to play accurately. Sometimes playing them slow in time is harder.

[livewire80]

Someone correct me if I am wrong. In one of my snare drum solo books. If the seven stroke roll is started on the 'and' of 1 with a left hand lead, I play it llrrll and R on the 2 which completes the seven stroke roll. Have I got it right?

[fiacovaz]

Someone correct me if I am wrong. In one of my snare drum solo books. If the seven stroke roll is started on the 'and' of 1 with a left hand lead, I play it llrrll and R on the 2 which completes the seven stroke roll. Have I got it right?

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Not quite Larry. The "1" in your example is still played as a single RH accented stroke. The 7 - stroke roll is still executed as RLLRRLL RLLRRLL etc. Rhythmically, this roll is written and played in two ways: First, as a 16th note (1) and dotted 8th note (e + a). When played in succession, the effect is a continuous roll witha single accent on the down beat. The second fashion, what you have described, is written as consecutive 8th notes ( 1 + 2 +) just like 5 - stroke rolls. To play the additonal double stroke, the "+" is counted as a 1/2 beat triplet (+ T L). The effect here is that it tightens up the roll and is often used in somewhat slower tempos...less than the standard 120 beats per minute or marching tempo. If you look through your rudimental solo book, look at the tempo markings and you should see what I mean.

[Norske]

There should be a Drum Chat rule that states:

Never, but NEVER doubt Frank when it comes to rudiments!!!! He doesn't just sound like he knows what he's talking about, he DOES.

[Bish]

He's got my attention.

[bassist learning drums]

That's what makes this forum interesting! Definitely a place for learning!!

[fiacovaz]

Addendum:

Larry does make a good point. He's taking the aspect of the 7 - stroke roll starting as a pickup on the "+" of the beat and completing on the downbeat. This is what I was trying to explain as the second way in which this Rudiment is utilized. The net effect is that it tightens the roll so that there is a distinct difference in interval spacing. In other word, the 7 - stroke roll is now played in the same space, or time frame, as the 5 - stroke roll is played. So, short answer to Larry's question is...Yes, you got it.

[livewire80]

There is a tie between the start of the 7 stroke roll on the '+' (left hand lead as i described) and the next downbeat.

THanks Frank.

Next question;

I think i got this right but need to confirm. If the 7 stroke is started on the '+' with a 'drag'. The drag is counted as the start of the roll so drag(played ll)rrll and the roll finishes R on the next downbeat. Does that sound right?

[fiacovaz]

I don't think that "Drag" would come into this, Larry. Don't forget, the roll has a distinct note value and count. When started on the " + ", we count it as "+ T L" and it receives a value of 1/2 beat. So, the written notation would have to be an 8th note with the strokes through it designating a roll and the number 7 above to denote a 7 - stroke roll.
Another way of writing this would be as 16th note triplet with a stroke through each note to denote it as a roll. When visualized this way, you can see why I say that the effect is tightening up the roll into 1/2 beat space just like a 5 - stroke roll.

[bassist learning drums]

I am scheduled to learn Drags next week. This week is Flams. Drags, as Ginger Baker says, " that is a drag".