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Thread: Tuning to the Shell Timbre (DWs John Good)

  1. #76

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    Default Re: Tuning to the Shell Tambor (DWs John Good)

    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    Maybe it was the easiest, but, was it impossible to get the same "ring" from the other sets?

    This is not said to argue with you, but after so many years playing, my personal opinion is that all this stuff about this wood or that wood, is pure business hype.

    I think people hear what they want to hear, and if 1 of their favorite drummers uses X drums with X heads on them, that's the stuff they want.

    Maybe I'm old school, but if you can tune, you can get the sound you want out of any set of decent drums.
    I agree with this. A lot of the hype out there is just hype. DW's don't sound "better" than anything else, because who decides what "better" is? The person playing or listening, that's who. Personal preference.
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  2. #77

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    Default Re: Tuning to the Shell Timbre (DWs John Good)

    It's not hype. John Good was employed as a drum tech for multiple big acts before his company took off, the last of which was Madonna. This is how he tuned drums for the artists he worked for and he incorporated it into his drums. If you decide to disregard knowledge thats your business. I do it and it works like a charm. Have you ever seen a glass break in front of a speaker? It's the same principle. You can blast music as loud as you want and the glass won't break, but as soon as you play the same note that the glass has it will start to vibrate sympathetically. Raise the volume enough and the glass will vibrate so hard it breaks itself. Find the note of the shell (and it does have a note) and tune the resonant head to that note. The shell will vibrate more freely like this. The batter head can effectively be tuned within three steps above or below this note. Thats nearly an octave tuning range. How is that a gimmick?

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  3. #78

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    Default Re: Tuning to the Shell Timbre (DWs John Good)

    Wow this thread (the first page i got tired of reading so i skipped 2nd page) has a lot of hate on dw, and drum innovations. I get what you guys are saying years ago (what back in 2011) maybe your thoughts have changed who knows but all what it think is with the variety of heads you could definitely get a variety of sounds. I kept seeing the same argument pop up on the first page that you have to know how to tune and if you can tune well the drums you tune can sound amazing. So what if you can tune well with the right heads and a nice quality drum set with the right type of wood, depth, and shell construction( mostly how dw has there X shells and vlt shells, ect.) What kind of sound would you get when you get the perfect combination.



    A really really good sounding drum set that sounds perfect to your ear and most other ears.
    Sabian!!!

  4. #79

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    Default Re: Tuning to the Shell Timbre (DWs John Good)

    "The batter head can effectively be tuned within three steps above or below this note. Thats nearly an octave tuning range. How is that a gimmick?"


    That can be done regardless of where the reso head is tuned.

    As for drum techs. Neil Peart has a drum tech named Lorne Wheaton who sets up Neil's drums and then Neil tunes them himself and gets a pretty good sound from them.

  5. #80

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    Im still confused. How is tuning the reso head to the fundamental note of the shell wrong, or in any way a gimmick. You quoted me out of context too. Friendly discussion is encouraged. I imagine that you could tune the reso an octave above the fundamental and that the batter could be tuned an octave above that. I doubt it would sound good and I would not recommend it. Tuning to the fundamental works. It is effective and easy and makes the drum sound great. Anyone using electronic tuners, those use the same technique. I should add that I do not use this on my BD or Snares. I tune my BD to the lowest possible pitch, and I tune my snares pretty high.
    Last edited by SunDog; 07-28-2014 at 04:38 PM.

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  6. #81

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    Default Re: Tuning to the Shell Timbre (DWs John Good)

    Quote Originally Posted by SunDog View Post
    Im still confused. How is tuning the reso head to the fundamental note of the shell wrong, or in any way a gimmick. You quoted me out of context too. Friendly discussion is encouraged. I imagine that you could tune the reso an octave above the fundamental and that the batter could be tuned an octave above that. I doubt it would sound good and I would not recommend it. Tuning to the fundamental works. It is effective and easy and makes the drum sound great. Anyone using electronic tuners, those use the same technique. I should add that I do not use this on my BD or Snares. I tune my BD to the lowest possible pitch, and I tune my snares pretty high.


    We seem to be getting off on the wrong foot on 2 posts. Sorry about that.

    Anyway, I never said that tuning to this "fundamental note of the shell" is wrong, but to say about any other tuning, "I doubt it would sound good and I would not recommend it." is up for debate.

    I've been at this a long, long, time, and if I learned anything about tuning, it's that it's a personal preference.

    I've seen Good and Gatzen tuning videos, and, to me, the drums did not sound good. Then again, that's just my opinion. Some people like their tuning higher, some, lower. I always liked mine somewhere in the middle.

    I've spent 50+ years never hearing any drummer, from beginners to top line pros, say that you tune to the note of the drum. Only in the last 5 years or so, have I heard that.

  7. #82

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    I agree, let's stop disagreeing. My drums turned 17 in May and have the fundamental note stamped inside. So it may have taken its time getting you but it's been around for a long time. So it's not for you. I didn't mean to make it sound like it's the only way, or that yours or other methods are wrong. Only that John Goods method works too. He is very good at tuning drums and worked on the road for a lot of big acts. When he talks about tuning drums he never says "this is the only way" or even "this is the best way". He only ever says this is "how I tune drums". I started doing it a few years back and it works really well, but my drums sounded good before too, so other methods obviously work as well. And hey, experience and good shells really make the biggest difference, IMO. My first and second kits were junk and I was a newb so they sounded pretty bad. By the time I got my first nice set (Premier XPK) my beginner kit was sounding pretty good. Tuning the new kit was immediately easier and sounded better, and then again with my Pearl MLX, and again with my DW (those last two kits were very comparable though).
    Last edited by SunDog; 07-29-2014 at 12:57 PM.

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  8. #83

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    Default Re: Tuning to the Shell Timbre (DWs John Good)

    My main kit is a 6 piece Yamaha Oak Custom with a Tama starclassic bubinga elite 14x6.5 snare. I have a "Tune-Bot" so I removed both heads from each tom and used the rubber covered "clamp" and clamped it to the drum shell and lightly rapped the shell with my middle finger joint and the Tune-Bot picked up the fundamental note and I repeated the process 10 times in a row to make sure the reading didnt vary and it didnt. I tuned the "reso" head to each drums 'fundamental note' and then proceeded to tune each tom to a "perfect 4th" and honestly, I noticed an increase in the sustain of each tom and by tuning to the "higher tone" that I chose, the kit has a more noticeable tonality than I had with the lower tuning I normally use. My toms used to blend in with the bass guitar, rhythm guitar, steel guitar and fiddle so that Ive been losing that 'individual tonality' of each tom, when I make a 'run' down from the 10 - 12- 14 - 16 floor. Now, with each drum 'singing' and tuned higher than previously, you can hear each tom clearly as I run down the "perfect 4th scale", which is one method of spacing your tom tuning intervals - Here's the Intervals I used; 10"=3 E / 12"= 2 B / 14"= 2 F# / 16"=2 C#

    So, I must admit that it does make the toms resonate more - along with tuning to a higher note than normal has made a good improvement - for "Me".
    I took my Magic Marker and put the "fundamental note" in small numbers inside each drum for future reference.

    {On a side note: I have (2) Die Cast brass Snare drum hoops for sale in the Drums For Sale Section if anyone is interested in putting "Die Cast Brass Hoops on your 10 lug snare drum and just noticed I dont have pics posted so I will if I can figure out how to do it.}

    Some may agree that this is a good method of tuning, others may not - and to all I will say "To each his own brand of poison".
    Last edited by Warren Wright; 07-29-2014 at 05:56 PM.
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  9. #84

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    Default Re: Tuning to the Shell Timbre (DWs John Good)

    In reality, I stopped trying for that "perfect" drum sound decades ago when I realized that going from a small rehearsal room to a church auditorium, my "perfect" sound went to hell real quick.

    This has been brought up before but bears repeating: Drums are at the mercy of room acoustics.

    Clubs with hard walls and no carpeting will bounce your drum sound all over the place. At the same time, clubs with drapes and carpeting will soak up your sound big time.

    I remember the 1st "big" club we played (200+ people) We set up and did a sound check where I would go to the back of the club and our bass player would play a few simple beats so I could get a read on what my drums would sound like throughout the room. Did some tuning and when we came back that night, my drums sounded a little "deader" because I didn't factor in 200 and some odd people that also would soak up sound.

    After that, I just tried to have a consistent sound because it would change at the next club.

  10. #85

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    Many people believe that a certain tree will have a better sound than others of the same type. That's why people like John, or Paul Reed Smith travel around the world to inspect woods. It's an obsession. So people who are obsessed with tone tend to find differences that other people either don't or can't.
    This is on the extreme end, but this guy here's no dummy...


  11. #86

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    Time to clarify the "fundamental note" business. DW raps the shells after their fabrication and before cutting edges, drilling and attaching any hardware or vents. They claim this is done to match other drums' tones harmonically to create kits and not for individual drum tuning. In other words DW wants to avoid building kits with shells of mismatched pitches, such as a 12" tom pitched higer than a 10." (IMO there's no way a 10" could sound lower fundamentally than a 12", but that's what they want to avoid.)Videos state you can tune any way you like.
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  12. #87

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    Default Re: Tuning to the Shell Timbre (DWs John Good)

    It's all marlarky!

    1. Everything has a pitch. Suspend a sheet of plywood and hit it. I'm sure it has some sort of measurable pitch (albeit, only detectable with some kind of scientific instrument). But do you actually believe that you can bend it into a circle and then attach a bunch of metal objects to it and it will still be the same pitch?

    2. What sort of pitch does wood glue and varnish add?

    3. If your drum set was in, let's say the key of G, and your band played a song in F# then something would sound horribly wrong! No?

    4. If this were true, then why wouldn't high end acoustic guitar makers make plywood guitars. Certainly cheaper and easier than painstakingly building from single pieces of veneer and having to brace them like crazy for the tension.

    I believe dW drums sound great because they're well made drums pure and simple, not for any other reason they would want you to believe.

    all the best...
    Last edited by kay-gee; 02-18-2015 at 06:45 AM.

  13. #88

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    Default Re: Tuning to the Shell Timbre (DWs John Good)

    "I believe dW drums sound great because they're well made drums pure and simple, not for any other reason they would want you to believe."


    DW's, Ludwig, Tama, Pearl, etc,. They only sound as good as the person who tunes them................ can TUNE THEM.

  14. #89

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    I agree with Rick on this one. I dont care what gimmick, pitch matched shells, suspension mounts, kickports, it all goes out the window the moment you change anything in the room. Add people, close curtains, add or remove furniture, change the humidity and your drums will sound way different. So have fun spending hours trying to tune to that perfect C# stamped on the inside of your shell.

  15. #90

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    Default Re: Tuning to the Shell Timbre (DWs John Good)

    Quote Originally Posted by slinglander View Post
    Time to clarify the "fundamental note" business. DW raps the shells after their fabrication and before cutting edges, drilling and attaching any hardware or vents. They claim this is done to match other drums' tones harmonically to create kits and not for individual drum tuning. In other words DW wants to avoid building kits with shells of mismatched pitches, such as a 12" tom pitched higer than a 10." (IMO there's no way a 10" could sound lower fundamentally than a 12", but that's what they want to avoid.)Videos state you can tune any way you like.
    Yes.....and no. The shells are timbre matched after they are cut to size and put into a family of shells that then remains together until they reach the buyer. Before they leave the factory an employee puts the shell on a tuner and stamps that note inside the shell. The drum then gets tuned to that note before being boxed and shipped. This is what the tune bot copies. What I don't understand is all the resistance. Someone makes tuning into a science as opposed to some mystical ritual and everyone balks at it. My guess is a lot of people tune different and it chaffs them a little to think they might be wrong. The whole "it's personal preference" or "whatever sounds good to you" philosophy to me is just feel good medicine. You tune your drums one way, the best way! Big rooms let you tune up a bit, small rooms you can tune down some. There ain't that much of a difference from venue to venue. The majority of drummers can't tune to save their lives, which is fine with me, but with the myriad of different philosophies I'm hearing, well someone has to be wrong. There is a right way to tune, it's the way that makes the audience say "wow!". The way that sounds the best is the one that sounds the best to the most people.
    Last edited by SunDog; 02-18-2015 at 09:34 AM.

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  16. #91

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    We played a medium sized club on Saturday night. It was one big wide open room. They told us the last band was a 2pc acoustic duo and complained they were too loud. I was worried we would be waaay to loud for them and debated whether to even bring a full drum kit. When we arrived to set up, the place was packed with people. We had to chase people off the stage just to set up. We cranked everything to our typical volume and after the first set, they complained that the people in the back couldn't even hear us at all, LOL. We cranked it up even more, I pulled the Moongel off the toms and played much harder than I usually do. It's amazing how much sound people soak up, especially when they are packed in a place.
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  17. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by SunDog View Post
    Yes.....and no. The shells are timbre matched after they are cut to size and put into a family of shells that then remains together until they reach the buyer. Before they leave the factory an employee puts the shell on a tuner and stamps that note inside the shell. The drum then gets tuned to that note before being boxed and shipped. This is what the tune bot copies. What I don't understand is all the resistance. Someone makes tuning into a science as opposed to some mystical ritual and everyone balks at it. My guess is a lot of people tune different and it chaffs them a little to think they might be wrong. The whole "it's personal preference" or "whatever sounds good to you" philosophy to me is just feel good medicine. You tune your drums one way, the best way! Big rooms let you tune up a bit, small rooms you can tune down some. There ain't that much of a difference from venue to venue. The majority of drummers can't tune to save their lives, which is fine with me, but with the myriad of different philosophies I'm hearing, well someone has to be wrong. There is a right way to tune, it's the way that makes the audience say "wow!". The way that sounds the best is the one that sounds the best to the most people.
    There is one line in there that lets me know exactly how little experience you have in the real world.

  18. #93

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    Let's all just get along. It can be equally as hard to state your position diplomatically and respectfully as it is to tune a drum. Who's up to the challenge?

    There are good points made on each side. I think there's room to meet in the middle.

  19. #94

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    Default Re: Tuning to the Shell Timbre (DWs John Good)

    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    "I believe dW drums sound great because they're well made drums pure and simple, not for any other reason they would want you to believe."


    DW's, Ludwig, Tama, Pearl, etc,. They only sound as good as the person who tunes them................ can TUNE THEM.
    This

  20. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Redneck View Post
    There is one line in there that lets me know exactly how little experience you have in the real world.
    I'm sorry, somehow I've angered you. I'd love to know which line though. I guess I don't have much real world experience. Last week my band was flown to Vegas (paid) and given rooms at Mandalay Bay (paid) with per diem for three days. We played a show in the casino convention center the next night and flew out the following. Our pay was $5,500 ($2750 in advance, $2750 the day of) for ninety minutes. My rider provided me a DW Collectors with 9000 hardware. The backline company was great and brought two snares. I flew my mine up for the show so I ended up with three DW snares (i played mine). I ate at Fleur while there (met Hubert Keller), late dinner and drinks at Ri Ra after the show, breakfast at House of Blues, then on a plane and back home. I met Justin Moore and his band, a couple of song writers for Justin and Miranda Lambert, and one really nice producer from Nashville. Now I'm back in Tucson getting ready for my upcoming gig at Casino Del Sol. I apologize if I somehow offended you, but my advice stands. It comes from my experience. I'm sorry if that experience isn't real enough for you to consider it worthy.

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  21. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by SunDog View Post
    I'm sorry, somehow I've angered you. I'd love to know which line though. I guess I don't have much real world experience. Last week my band was flown to Vegas (paid) and given rooms at Mandalay Bay (paid) with per diem for three days. We played a show in the casino convention center the next night and flew out the following. Our pay was $5,500 ($2750 in advance, $2750 the day of) for ninety minutes. My rider provided me a DW Collectors with 9000 hardware. The backline company was great and brought two snares. I flew my mine up for the show so I ended up with three DW snares (i played mine). I ate at Fleur while there (met Hubert Keller), late dinner and drinks at Ri Ra after the show, breakfast at House of Blues, then on a plane and back home. I met Justin Moore and his band, a couple of song writers for Justin and Miranda Lambert, and one really nice producer from Nashville. Now I'm back in Tucson getting ready for my upcoming gig at Casino Del Sol. I apologize if I somehow offended you, but my advice stands. It comes from my experience. I'm sorry if that experience isn't real enough for you to consider it worthy.
    Sounds like a HORRIBLE gig. LOL.

  22. #97

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    Not angered in the least. But if you dont think the room makes much of a difference in the sound of a drum.......well I have nothing more to say.

  23. #98

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    Default Re: Tuning to the Shell Timbre (DWs John Good)

    Quote Originally Posted by SunDog View Post
    I'm sorry, somehow I've angered you. I'd love to know which line though. I guess I don't have much real world experience. Last week my band was flown to Vegas (paid) and given rooms at Mandalay Bay (paid) with per diem for three days. We played a show in the casino convention center the next night and flew out the following. Our pay was $5,500 ($2750 in advance, $2750 the day of) for ninety minutes. My rider provided me a DW Collectors with 9000 hardware. The backline company was great and brought two snares. I flew my mine up for the show so I ended up with three DW snares (i played mine). I ate at Fleur while there (met Hubert Keller), late dinner and drinks at Ri Ra after the show, breakfast at House of Blues, then on a plane and back home. I met Justin Moore and his band, a couple of song writers for Justin and Miranda Lambert, and one really nice producer from Nashville. Now I'm back in Tucson getting ready for my upcoming gig at Casino Del Sol. I apologize if I somehow offended you, but my advice stands. It comes from my experience. I'm sorry if that experience isn't real enough for you to consider it worthy.
    Sounds like experience to me.

  24. #99

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    I suspect that all 12" toms made by the same craftsmen, using the same high quality materials to the same specification, combined with strict quality control will produce a large number of almost identical sounding 12" toms. I doubt that DW have any difficulty finding other drums to match up with the 12inchers they produce - I suspect that product that is rejected is for quality control issues (i.e. someone screwed up rather than they have difficulty sonically matching it).

    Drums made from the same materials, with the same dimensions, bearing edges, number of plies and shell thickness will not be appreciably different from each other. Manufacturers have known for ages which diameters and depths of shell complement each other and this has far more bearing on the results than this 'timbre matching' malarkey (IMO). I think this is just PR - anything that gets people to consider if this is relevant also makes them consider DW. As a PR exercise it works - but I'm not convinced it makes any appreciable difference.



    Of course inability to tune makes everything else redundant

  25. #100

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    Thx drummer. Redneck I think you and I are having a difference of the glossary on this. It's a glass half full vs glass half empty thing. I look at venues in terms of similarities. I've been running sound since my late twenties, so more than fifteen years now. I see venues in a few categories. Outdoors, indoor room, and indoor hall. I break them up into three subcategories. Small, medium, and large. What are we playing tonight? It's a room. Is it a small,medium, or large room? It's a hall. Is it a small,medium, or large hall? It's outdoors!! All bets are off! It's really like Rick said earlier, I just pretty much tune my drums one way, I can't control the venue and I can't constantly be tuning my drums for a specific place. I see venues kind of like natural reverb units. Every place is either a room or a hall, and either small,medium, or large (again except for outdoors). There are of course arenas and stadiums (giant halls), and if I ever play in one I'll keep you posted. My best to you.

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