timbales questions.

[Russ]

hey first timer in this section, but ive always been real interested in different percussion type rhythms so i have some questions about timbales if i may.

1) what is the different sounds ill get with different shell material(bronze, steel, etc)
2) anyone know how i would go about making timbales?
3) which brands or series of timbales are good, and have all the sizes in one type of shell material that i could collect over time?

really trying to cram everything into one thread, so i also wanna ask the same three questions about deccabons/octobans as well. or any other type of percussion type drums if thats cool?

[Gretschhead]

Hey Russ, welcome to the Percussion section! Some good questions, I'll do my best to point you in the right direction.

1. Steel Shell - Bright sound, very loud with a great attack, nice bright cascara. Steel is pretty much the standard and is probably what you've heard on most recordings.

Brass Shell - Warmer sound with great tone. The cascara is much dryer than steel. These are in my opinion the best sounding drums tone wise.

Copper Shell - These are tougher to find, but I have seen a few vintage sets made of copper. In my opinion not the best sound from the drum or cascara. Soundwise its kind of a mix between brass and steel, leaning more toward the dry side.

Wood Shell - Can have a bright sound with lots of attack and nice woody overtones. You wont get a traditional cascara playing on the side of a wood shell though.

2. Making your own timbales can be easy. Just get 2 different sized drum shells and remove the bottom head and hardware. Traditional sizes would be 13" & 14" or 14" and 15", probably no more than 6" deep, so snare shells would work the best.

3. If you are interested in getting the whole set in the same series over time I would lean towards the LP Tito Puente models. They come in 13, 14, 15, 16 and timbalitos in 9 1/2 & 10 1/2. They have been the standard for the last 30+ years, so they are easy to find used, and LP is still pumping them out if you want new. I got the chance to see Tito before he died, and he had the whole set up, 6 drums it was amazing!

As far as octobons go, I've never really been a fan, so I can't really offer you any information there.

[Russ]

haha maybe i failed spanish or something but whats a cascara?

[midgard]

Cascara - in spanish it literally means "shell". But, it is also the name of a common rhythm that is played on the shell of the drum. There are a couple of variations, but the version I have heard the most is:

1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a
X XX X XX X XX X

[Russ]

what does all that mean? i assume its with only the hands cause its percussive?

[midgard]

Maybe this will be a better way of describing it.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6BZwcia2Pc&NR=1"]YouTube - Basic Timbale "Cascara" Pattern 2 Clave W/ foot[/ame]

[midgard]

Hi leedy,

Welcome to the forum, nice to have you aboard!

I am sorry if I gave the impression that it was *me* playing! lol... I was only looking for an example of how to explain the cascara beat and went searching youtube. So, I am afraid I can't answer your question since that is not me nor do I have any timbales.

Sorry!

[midgard]

leedy - WOW! I looked at the pictures of your collection and I was quite impressed at the number of timbales, congas, and bongos you had! All in great condition, cared for, and lovingly displayed. Very impressive! The only question I have is how can I get on your will?? LOL

Awesome job man!

[luv4congas]

I'm very impressed with the history leedy2, That's great stuff! Has anyone made a documentary on film about timbales yet? It would be very cool!....Now when did the cow bell come into play?
L4C

[Russ]

i have some questions about how these two:



compare with other traditional sets of timbales? these are in my price range and i can get them in 8,10,12,13" sizes which i was looking hard for, and since i play a drumset they say they're designed for them. is there a huge difference in sound? are these good or bad ideas cause im very interested in them but wondered if you guys know more. thanks!

[Gretschhead]

I have to agree with Leedy here, they are more of a sound fx add on than timbales. You won't be able to pull any traditional timbale sounds out of them. The sound will be like roto-toms with ringy overtones. I'm not at all saying they won't sound cool with your kit, they just won't have that traditional sound if thats what you are looking for. It all depends how you are planning to use them. Are you interested in adding latin style rhythms to your set, or are you just looking for additional sounds to use in your current styling? If you aren't going for a latin sound, then you will probably be satisfied with them, but if you are playing salsa etc, you will need a good set of 13/14.

[Russ]

im planning on getting traditional timbales after adding these. looking for two sets, maybe a 12/13+13/14; or 13/14+14/15.. but im looking for them in steel and of the same build quality so preferrably from the same series

[Redeye]

I haven't looked in this area for a while and this is a bit behind the conversation, but...

I have about 10 years experience with timbales playing traditional latin beats. My main set is LP 14/15. I have been using one of them on my set (left of my hi-hat) for awhile. I recently got the LP 12x4 black drumset timbale and am loving the sound. It is as authentic sounding as my full sized set, just higher. The ones I really want, but can't afford are the Pearl Brass Elite. They come in 13, 14, and 15.

[Redeye]

Hi ShaneRoney
by what you are saying you use only one of drum from a timbales set with a drum set right and got 12x4 pan timbales drum .Ok for proper playing of latin music you should be using the full timbales 14/15 reason when playing latin there is a beat that many timbales players don't play it which is done with left hand on drum.which fall on your count (1 and 2 and ) the and beat in latin music maybe missing and that is very important,that why recommend that you use both 14/15. Next as sound of 12x4 that drum is made for affects will not give the true sound of a full size timbales .I am very happy you like the Pearl Elite those drum were designed for me by Pearl but deal never went through here I post my set they are very well made drums you also have the Mark Quinones model that's very good made by pearl also ok hope this helps you You can see my collection on timbales just go (myspace.com/cuquito717) photo's and enjoy the view.
Cuco

Sorry, misunderstanding. I use a full set when I play latin stuff, but the 12" on my set for other types of music. My point was that the 12" sounds just as authentic as anything else, just way higher. Nice stuff by the way.

[Ernesto Pediangco]

I haven't looked in this area for a while and this is a bit behind the conversation, but...

I have about 10 years experience with timbales playing traditional latin beats. My main set is LP 14/15. I have been using one of them on my set (left of my hi-hat) for awhile. I recently got the LP 12x4 black drumset timbale and am loving the sound. It is as authentic sounding as my full sized set, just higher. The ones I really want, but can't afford are the Pearl Brass Elite. They come in 13, 14, and 15.

I like these shells, but Pearls went the wrong direction when adding a Conga Lug looking L bracket to this tuning system. Latin Timbales seem to ignore the mechanical engineering developed from the drum industry. The use of L brackets & unnecessary big tuning bolts bring hard wares off from the shell & creates lots of leverage tension that bends & warps the shells. ( L brackets are a fulcrum that tends to fold in to the shell & pull up the bottom ) So they went w/ a wider lug plate that adds more weight to the drum. It looks like a truck part or garbage pail compared to stream lined drums of same type. The ribs were needed to compensate these stresses to the shell but also interrupt the area for playing cascara. Pearl & new Gon Bops use a cheap stupid conga mount bracket , mounted to the timbale shell and fitting a stupidly designed heavy & awkward timbale stand / conga stand that does little to enhance the timbale sound & is counter productive to ease of use, practical needs of drummers for set up, playing & cartage issues. ( need a roadie for these cans ! ) If drum sets were designed like this, we'd all boycott the product ! I do not use Lp,Toca or Pearl style shells w/ this type tuning system. I did use a similar Afro brand shell and added Leedy Lug w/ key rod & eagle claw system that is proven to be a dependable system, offers the use of both plastic heads & calf mounted heads, mounts from the rims in a secure fashion but remains light weight & is far more attractive. The powder coated hard wares on these Pearls, are far inferior to chromed metal or even stainless steel options. In side by side testing, I found these drums to be loud but shrill sounding, lacking tone in the cheap plastic heads, the cascara was choked and not taking advantage of the warm dry sound of brass shells that originally was a designed cascara tone by previous American timbales like Leedy, Gretsch & Gon Bops, to sound in balance w/ claves,maracas, guiro nas a rhythm section. These timbales are what I call Rock & Roll tims, built for volume only and sounding counter productive to a blended dynamic w/ the other hand perc of a Latin Rhythm section. The Steel version model from Pearl are even less EAR friendly and the cascara tone sounds like hitting a piece of random auto body parts at a wrecking yard. Finaly, Pearl & Lp are building Top of drum tunning systems that were common to American made & European made models of the 50's & 60's. Latin drums remain backward designed & need a total re design for many reasons to come back to Music oriented & user friendly oriented instruments, not just building something that is a reasonable facsimile of timbales !

[Drumbledore]

Hey Russ, I'll get some pic's done of my Octobans a little later, but I'll show you some pics of both full size and mini-timbales that I use in percussion set-ups.

Just in a lil hurry as I'm in between students here today!

Mini-timbales by Dixon.


Full-sized brass timbales made by Mano Percussion

[Jerry Bembe]

Ernesto, Please share your solutions to these issues to balance out your comments. Most folks are not familiar with the proper tone but if they are not playin' traditional Latin then that's OK bro. As long as they are enjoying themselves, it's all good.

You provide valuable insight and this is a great opportunity for us to learn and grow. I am not a Timbale player but I do play bells and you have given me some great ideas. I will be in touch after I do some musical experiments with some of the principals you have shared here.

By the way, I do like some junk yard sounds. I have a found object collection that appears like random junk but it is music to my ears. I am always tappin on stuff and drivin my wife crazy. I even got my teenage son hooked on this sickness. My found object rack resembles something right out of the Fat Albert Show of the 70's. In 3rd world nations and Brazil and Trinadad & Tobago this is how many great instruments were invented and are sometimes still built. (Steel Drums and various Samba insrtuments). My favorite found objects include a Brake Drum off a car, several pieces of sheet metal for thunder and rain sounds, a pecker head (a metal enclosure for wiring to an electric motor), brass plimbing flanges (nice bright Agogo sound), lighting parts (gongs), and the list goes on and on.

Thanks for the great research and keep it comin'.

Peace, Jerry Bembe

I like these shells, but Pearls went the wrong direction when adding a Conga Lug looking L bracket to this tuning system. Latin Timbales seem to ignore the mechanical engineering developed from the drum industry. The use of L brackets & unnecessary big tuning bolts bring hard wares off from the shell & creates lots of leverage tension that bends & warps the shells. ( L brackets are a fulcrum that tends to fold in to the shell & pull up the bottom ) So they went w/ a wider lug plate that adds more weight to the drum. It looks like a truck part or garbage pail compared to stream lined drums of same type. The ribs were needed to compensate these stresses to the shell but also interrupt the area for playing cascara. Pearl & new Gon Bops use a cheap stupid conga mount bracket , mounted to the timbale shell and fitting a stupidly designed heavy & awkward timbale stand / conga stand that does little to enhance the timbale sound & is counter productive to ease of use, practical needs of drummers for set up, playing & cartage issues. ( need a roadie for these cans ! ) If drum sets were designed like this, we'd all boycott the product ! I do not use Lp,Toca or Pearl style shells w/ this type tuning system. I did use a similar Afro brand shell and added Leedy Lug w/ key rod & eagle claw system that is proven to be a dependable system, offers the use of both plastic heads & calf mounted heads, mounts from the rims in a secure fashion but remains light weight & is far more attractive. The powder coated hard wares on these Pearls, are far inferior to chromed metal or even stainless steel options. In side by side testing, I found these drums to be loud but shrill sounding, lacking tone in the cheap plastic heads, the cascara was choked and not taking advantage of the warm dry sound of brass shells that originally was a designed cascara tone by previous American timbales like Leedy, Gretsch & Gon Bops, to sound in balance w/ claves,maracas, guiro nas a rhythm section. These timbales are what I call Rock & Roll tims, built for volume only and sounding counter productive to a blended dynamic w/ the other hand perc of a Latin Rhythm section. The Steel version model from Pearl are even less EAR friendly and the cascara tone sounds like hitting a piece of random auto body parts at a wrecking yard. Finaly, Pearl & Lp are building Top of drum tunning systems that were common to American made & European made models of the 50's & 60's. Latin drums remain backward designed & need a total re design for many reasons to come back to Music oriented & user friendly oriented instruments, not just building something that is a reasonable facsimile of timbales !

[Drumbledore]

By the way, I do like some junk yard sounds. I have a found object collection that appears like random junk but it is music to my ears. I am always tappin on stuff and drivin my wife crazy. I even got my teenage son hooked on this sickness. My found object rack resembles something right out of the Fat Albert Show of the 70's. In 3rd world nations and Brazil and Trinadad & Tobago this is how many great instruments were invented and are sometimes still built. (Steel Drums and various Samba insrtuments). My favorite found objects include a Brake Drum off a car, several pieces of sheet metal for thunder and rain sounds, a pecker head (a metal enclosure for wiring to an electric motor), brass plimbing flanges (nice bright Agogo sound), lighting parts (gongs), and the list goes on and on.

Thanks for the great research and keep it comin'.

Peace, Jerry Bembe

Have you seen footage of Africans using large files instead of guiros for scraping sounds?

[Ernesto Pediangco]

The ideal sizes for authentic Latin timbales was long ago established at !3" & 14 " shells & is the best for general purpose music styles & environments. The larger Lp Tito Puente model was invented as a interim size between portable Cuban Tympani & the American sized which had smaller sizes popular w/ Latin & jazz combos & as soloing instruments. Tito Puente models being 14 " & 15 " are often tuned to high, trying to achieve the sound of traditional sized 13 & 14 's. This higher tuned large timbales just end up having a more shrill like harmonic over ring on the head tones & playing cascara / the shell sides. Lager timbales are generally more at home in larger Salsa music bands. I stopped using the large sizes because of the unnecessary size & weight, preferring to use vintage American drum company brands like Rogers, Slingerland, & Leedy, which all made brass shells w/ drum key rod tunning, not automotive looking bolts. Ludwig was popular with those who like a brighter ringier head & cascara sound that cut through electric guitars etc. Its a matter of acquired taste & most educated timbale players have several sets for particular application rather than a one set for all uses which is like bringing a a stack of amplifiers to an accoustic music performance. Just not appropriate for the gig setting. Used timbales are easy to find in all price ranges. If you just want to introduce your self to them, you may not want a big $$$ investment into so called professional models ( its relative to the players needs, not the drum company's hyped up marketing. Many modern Tlimbales are built from crude designs of the 40's which do not offer much refinement & it's awkward for drum set players to be forced to use automotive tools just to tune timbales. Obvious if you are a conga , bongo & timbale player, the automotive tool fits all 1/2" hex heads for these Latin drums. Pearl & Lp & other make steel shell drum set timbales but are merely shells w/ light weight drum lugs & rims, that have not been designed for a good cascara tone ( these are truly cheap import versions of Timbales and is why most Latin Drummers rather play the timbales that look like garbage pails w/ automotive bolts.

[Ernesto Pediangco]

Hey Russ, I'll get some pic's done of my Octobans a little later, but I'll show you some pics of both full size and mini-timbales that I use in percussion set-ups.

Just in a lil hurry as I'm in between students here today!

Mini-timbales by Dixon.


Full-sized brass timbales made by Mano Percussion

The Mano Brass shells look nice, too bad the design has an 8 lug 14" shell when both would sound great w/ 6 lugs. There's not much room for cascara with 8 lugs in the way. The drum lug l bracket ruin this for me. If they were both 6 lugs w/ a better lug design & proper backing plates to dampen shell over ring, I would consider these. L brackets are a bad design, the upward tensions of tuning, forces the L to bend inward into the shell and cause dents. The flat L bracket shell mount ( copied from Lp ) is also a horrible thing to do to a metal drum shell ! It forces the rounded shell to flatten against the bracket mount. At least American drum companies used parts that fit the contour of the shells properly. Mano, needs a better designer ! Copying " Made in China designs" or " Made in Thailand " designs etc, is very Sub Par.

[Drumbledore]

Russ, with my current band, I've this set-up to the left of my hi-hats. A small 8" Dixon mini-timbale plus my customized 8" snare drum made by a mate of mine. With the snares switched off, it's pretty timbale-like. Above it a cowbell plus some agogo bells. Also, coming off my bass drum I have another large cowbell plus a small tapon cowbell. This way, I can play both drumkit parts plus simple percussion parts.

Photos taken at a video shoot and rehearsal last night

[9digits]

Hey guys, don't mean to hijack but I'm in the same boat. I used to own the Tama Mini Tymps for some variety, sold them and now want to add some again.
I ran into these and was wondering what your opinions are of them? I don't want to purchase the large traditional Timbales because of space, and prefer something smaller to add additional sounds.

http://www.google.com/#q=LP+John+Dol...3e2739446bc197

[Drumbledore]

[QUOTE=9digits;378364]Hey guys, don't mean to hijack but I'm in the same boat. I used to own the Tama Mini Tymps for some variety, sold them and now want to add some again.
I ran into these and was wondering what your opinions are of them? I don't want to purchase the large traditional Timbales because of space, and prefer something smaller to add additional sounds.

My Dixon Mini-timbales are pretty much the same as what you had with the Mini-Tymps. Just like yourself, for me sometimes space is an issue, especially as at the moment I'm playing covers and with a large group, space at the current venue where we have our residency is a big issue. As much as I'd like to be playing large size timbales, it's not going to be practical, especially if in the first place I'm not going to be playing authentic Latin rhythms within pop and dance tunes! So I'm really using these for colour....I'm sometimes playing percussion "stabs" on top of drumkit patterns, covering two roles really. In fact, the set up on the left is really an 8"mini-timbale coupled with a customised 8" effects snare that I can use as a timbale with the snares disengaged, plus a medium cowbell and a pair of agogo bells.

[9digits]

[quote=Drumbledore;378425]

Hey guys, don't mean to hijack but I'm in the same boat. I used to own the Tama Mini Tymps for some variety, sold them and now want to add some again.
I ran into these and was wondering what your opinions are of them? I don't want to purchase the large traditional Timbales because of space, and prefer something smaller to add additional sounds.

My Dixon Mini-timbales are pretty much the same as what you had with the Mini-Tymps. Just like yourself, for me sometimes space is an issue, especially as at the moment I'm playing covers and with a large group, space at the current venue where we have our residency is a big issue. As much as I'd like to be playing large size timbales, it's not going to be practical, especially if in the first place I'm not going to be playing authentic Latin rhythms within pop and dance tunes! So I'm really using these for colour....I'm sometimes playing percussion "stabs" on top of drumkit patterns, covering two roles really. In fact, the set up on the left is really an 8"mini-timbale coupled with a customised 8" effects snare that I can use as a timbale with the snares disengaged, plus a medium cowbell and a pair of agogo bells.

That's what I want them for exactly, and I made use of a small room in the back part of my house that puts me against the wall with the stereo and speakers etc.
I haven't familiarized myself with LP stuff like the ones I linked, don't know if they are good quality or not. They go for 170.00 US, but I found them with cowbell for 130.00 and have my hand on the button but can't find any reviews. What ya think?

[9digits]

The ideal sizes for authentic Latin timbales was long ago established at !3" & 14 " shells & is the best for general purpose music styles & environments. The larger Lp Tito Puente model was invented as a interim size between portable Cuban Tympani & the American sized which had smaller sizes popular w/ Latin & jazz combos & as soloing instruments. Tito Puente models being 14 " & 15 " are often tuned to high, trying to achieve the sound of traditional sized 13 & 14 's. This higher tuned large timbales just end up having a more shrill like harmonic over ring on the head tones & playing cascara / the shell sides. Lager timbales are generally more at home in larger Salsa music bands. I stopped using the large sizes because of the unnecessary size & weight, preferring to use vintage American drum company brands like Rogers, Slingerland, & Leedy, which all made brass shells w/ drum key rod tunning, not automotive looking bolts. Ludwig was popular with those who like a brighter ringier head & cascara sound that cut through electric guitars etc. Its a matter of acquired taste & most educated timbale players have several sets for particular application rather than a one set for all uses which is like bringing a a stack of amplifiers to an accoustic music performance. Just not appropriate for the gig setting. Used timbales are easy to find in all price ranges. If you just want to introduce your self to them, you may not want a big $$$ investment into so called professional models ( its relative to the players needs, not the drum company's hyped up marketing. Many modern Tlimbales are built from crude designs of the 40's which do not offer much refinement & it's awkward for drum set players to be forced to use automotive tools just to tune timbales. Obvious if you are a conga , bongo & timbale player, the automotive tool fits all 1/2" hex heads for these Latin drums. Pearl & Lp & other make steel shell drum set timbales but are merely shells w/ light weight drum lugs & rims, that have not been designed for a good cascara tone ( these are truly cheap import versions of Timbales and is why most Latin Drummers rather play the timbales that look like garbage pails w/ automotive bolts.

Thanks, I got the answer I was looking for in this post about the LP stuff. I didn't know about the automotive 1/2" stuff needed for tuning on certain Timbales lol!