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Thread: Nature vs Nurture

  1. #26

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    Default Re: Nature vs Nurture

    What makes ANYONE faster? We should all know this. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE The 3 most famous words of drumming. nuff said bout this me thinks.

  2. #27
    Imperialstar Guest

    Default Re: Nature vs Nurture

    Quote Originally Posted by Funk-Soldier View Post
    Well the next I am asked for you to approve of my banner or my handle, Ill let you know. The term Funk Soldier is a term deemed worthy by my bass player, found in a Prince funk jam, and has no direct referance to my service with the 23rd MEU, or my Marine Corps Service. AGain, next time I need your approvel when I set my account up, Ill let you know. And for 26 years in, you certainly make a strong point to insult my service. All the Gunnys and Master Guns I have come across would never begin to insult a mans service to his country. And Im guessing from your pompous remarks that you are doubting my service. Let me ask you , Sir, at what point did you decide to delve off topic and start hurling insults. If your counterpoint was so strong than why would you , in this day and age, assume to know something about, and directly question and insult, the service a man served. At which point in your 26 year career did the branch you serve deem it honorable to insult a fellow service member? The details of my term and service are not the topic here. Our difference of opinion is. I find it hard to believe any senior enlisted, or commissioned member of the military would approve of your insulting my service. Have a nice day.
    I didn't insult your service (that's reaching). I did however poke at your attempt to throw that into the conversation as leverage...as if you were the only one who served here or that it's important to the topic. With your assumptions, reasoning and response, I'll just add you to my ignore list. Semper Fi!
    Last edited by Imperialstar; 11-05-2009 at 01:03 PM.

  3. #28
    Imperialstar Guest

    Default Re: Nature vs Nurture

    Quote Originally Posted by veafer View Post
    What makes ANYONE faster? We should all know this. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE The 3 most famous words of drumming. nuff said bout this me thinks.
    Thanks... voice of reason.

  4. #29

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    Default Re: Nature vs Nurture

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperialstar View Post
    I didn't insult your service (that's reaching like a teenager would). I did however poke at your insolent attempt to throw that into the conversation as leverage...as if you were the only one who served here. Since you are grossly child-like in your assumptions, reasoning and response, I'll just add you to my ignore list. Semper Fi!
    This is not necessary. I think there was provocation due to being overly sensitive and jumping to conclusions. Forums are not like real conversation. You can't read facial expressions and verbal cues therefore it is necessary to give others the benefit of the doubt when posting. Otherwise it just provokes and creates situations like this that grow out of control. It creates division in the forum and makes my job a lot harder.

    I plead once again for the utmost diplomacy in your posts. This forum is about "respect" first and foremost.
    - Tom

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  5. #30
    Imperialstar Guest

    Default Re: Nature vs Nurture

    Quote Originally Posted by drummer View Post
    This is not necessary. I think there was provocation due to being overly sensitive and jumping to conclusions. Forums are not like real conversation. You can't read facial expressions and verbal cues therefore it is necessary to give others the benefit of the doubt when posting. Otherwise it just provokes and creates situations like this that grow out of control. It creates division in the forum and makes my job a lot harder.

    I plead once again for the utmost diplomacy in your posts. This forum is about "respect" first and foremost.
    I changed the wording to be less.. "personal." His words and actions were pretty disrespectful from my POV. Grossly disrespectful since he would never dare address his senior NCO or Officer that way. Face to face, his rant would not have happened.

    EDIT again: This is my last post on this topic, my original statement about genetics (heredity) and of course education/practice stand. And my list of names destroys any "inherent ethnic superiority" argument.
    Last edited by Imperialstar; 11-05-2009 at 01:48 PM.

  6. #31

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    Ok. If I must take the blame for this to stop, than please for the love of God blame me. This is ridiculous. Sorry, Drummer, The blame falls on my shoulders for expecting to be able post a personal opinion without being labeled a racist. The last thing I expected was to be involved in a "he-did-it-first", racial debate. I should have known better than to even bring it up.
    Somebody open a window, cuz this boy is FUNKY
    Old School Mapex Funk 7 piece
    Iron Cobra, Sabian, Evans, Pro-Mark
    Currently laying down grooves for my power funk trio Off The Hook and The Sho Nuf Blues Kings.

  7. #32

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    Default Re: Nature vs Nurture

    Thank you Funk. Ok, from here on out, we need to keep this on track or I'll have to close the thread.
    - Tom

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  8. #33

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    Default Re: Nature vs Nurture

    Roger that.
    Somebody open a window, cuz this boy is FUNKY
    Old School Mapex Funk 7 piece
    Iron Cobra, Sabian, Evans, Pro-Mark
    Currently laying down grooves for my power funk trio Off The Hook and The Sho Nuf Blues Kings.

  9. #34

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    I think that a very large portion of it is genetics. I know kids that are 5 or 6 and can jam away, just keeping time of course, to any song you throw out there. With some formal training those kids could be amazing. On the other side of the coin, however I know people who cannot keep a beat to save their life, regardless of how hard they try. Everyone knows it takes hours and hours of practice to be a great anything, but I tend to think that some people have an advantage or disadvantage in this. Athletic people tend to be more populous in the music world but obviously not necessarily the best or only by any stretch. This goes for not only drumming but other instruments as well, and non-music areas as well. Look at Shaq for instance, love him or hate him he is one of the greatest centers in basketball history and he is a big guy. Not built like an athlete but he loves what he does and he does it well, which brings me to another point. I thoroughly believe that no matter your build, skill, or natural talent, you have to love something to be great at it. If you don't love the game, you won't play it. If you love drumming, you will drum and progress and practice and be good.

    This is all opinion of course and should not be taken as fact or something to be argued about.
    "You have to love music more then food. More than air. More than yourself."-The Wizard (August Rush)

    I think I can realistically say that I will never be too old to laugh at a fart. Ever. -dave0549jv

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  10. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperialstar View Post
    Hmm Buddy Rich, Tim Watters, Gene Hoglan, Mike Mangini, Chris Adler, Joey Jordinson, Thomas Lang, Virgil Donati, Marco Minemann and Vinnie Coulaiuta are all screamingly fast and...white. But that's just a nonscientific observation based on my experience, not to bring race into it and offend anyone.

    Science explains this...I suppose faith could too.
    Dennis Chambers, Tony Royster Jr, Will Calhoun, Max Roach, Teddy Campbell, Thomas Pridgen, Aaron Spears, Billy Cobham, Ndugu Chancler, Marvin McQuitty and Gerald Heyward are all black, and are insanely good drummers.
    - Zack

  11. #36

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    Default Re: Nature vs Nurture

    Quote Originally Posted by TURTLINATOR View Post
    I think that a very large portion of it is genetics. I know kids that are 5 or 6 and can jam away, just keeping time of course, to any song you throw out there. With some formal training those kids could be amazing. On the other side of the coin, however I know people who cannot keep a beat to save their life, regardless of how hard they try. Everyone knows it takes hours and hours of practice to be a great anything, but I tend to think that some people have an advantage or disadvantage in this. Athletic people tend to be more populous in the music world but obviously not necessarily the best or only by any stretch. This goes for not only drumming but other instruments as well, and non-music areas as well. Look at Shaq for instance, love him or hate him he is one of the greatest centers in basketball history and he is a big guy. Not built like an athlete but he loves what he does and he does it well, which brings me to another point. I thoroughly believe that no matter your build, skill, or natural talent, you have to love something to be great at it. If you don't love the game, you won't play it. If you love drumming, you will drum and progress and practice and be good.

    This is all opinion of course and should not be taken as fact or something to be argued about.
    While I definitely fall on the heredity side, and athetlics is a good analogy, I don't know if you know that physical fitness is inherited. I don't mean athletic ability, literal fitnees. Even if someone becomes more fit as an adult and was not as a child, their children will inherit their adult traits. So makes you wonder about the nature v. nurture thing.

    So while there is definite inherited natural rhythm, I wonder if as adults more people were involved in music if all children would eventually have more rhythm.
    Jesse

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  12. #37

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    [QUOTE=TURTLINATOR;245024]I think that a very large portion of it is genetics. I know kids that are 5 or 6 and can jam away, just keeping time of course, to any song you throw out there. With some formal training those kids could be amazing. On the other side of the coin, however I know people who cannot keep a beat to save their life, regardless of how hard they try. Everyone knows it takes hours and hours of practice to be a great anything, but I tend to think that some people have an advantage or disadvantage in this. Athletic people tend to be more populous in the music world but obviously not necessarily the best or only by any stretch. This goes for not only drumming but other instruments as well, and non-music areas as well. Look at Shaq for instance, love him or hate him he is one of the greatest centers in basketball history and he is a big guy. Not built like an athlete but he loves what he does and he does it well, which brings me to another point. I thoroughly believe that no matter your build, skill, or natural talent, you have to love something to be great at it. If you don't love the game, you won't play it. If you love drumming, you will drum and progress and practice and be good.

    This is all opinion of course and should not be taken as fact or something to be argued about.[/QUOTE

    Well put, TURTL. And I totally agree. No matter what you replace "percussion" with, the passion is what drives most to the point where theye accell beyond their peers. I know a kid that was born out of the womb playing six-tuplet runs, practiced very little on his own other than the nightly practice sessions, in season, with Drumline, which was what, September to January I think. The kid picked up the theory side of the coin within minutes of his first lesson, and applied the theory to his performance, but only while supervised. In his free time he fumbled around with the kit from time to time, performed well and recieved much praise from his peers and instructors. However, potential is worthless without practice. I know this to be true because that kid was ME. As I sit, at age 33, the guy who played cymbals behind me in HS now has a studio gig in Nashville as a professional musician in the Christian Rock community. He practiced, devoted his time to his passion, while I p***ed away the years without ever applying my potential. Sorry for the long story, but I think it was relevant to the whole "practice, practice, practice" theory. Natural talent will get you nowhere without practice and dedication. Good thread!
    Somebody open a window, cuz this boy is FUNKY
    Old School Mapex Funk 7 piece
    Iron Cobra, Sabian, Evans, Pro-Mark
    Currently laying down grooves for my power funk trio Off The Hook and The Sho Nuf Blues Kings.

  13. #38

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    [quote=Funk-Soldier;245197]
    Quote Originally Posted by TURTLINATOR View Post
    Natural talent will get you nowhere without practice and dedication. Good thread!
    Agreed. Nurture way more than nature. Practice, dedication and also sheer time playing. Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers suggests that anyone who puts in enough time - 10,000 hours being a yardstick - will be pretty much guaranteed to be excellent whoever they are, in whatever they do. In music he cites Mozart and The Beatles - Mozart by starting young and The Beatles by gigging huge hours in Liverpool and Hamburg.

    Buddy Rich may not have practiced much/at all, but he was hitting something by the time he was one. Vaudeville before he was two, bandleader at eleven. I don't know how long it took him to clock up 10,000 hours but at an average of 2 hours a day, he'd reach this by his mid teens, easy.

  14. #39

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    As a noob (and not a drummer) I hesitate to join in. But I'm finding this thread really interesting, and it reminds me of a TV programme I once saw about a mixed race couple. Mum was white, dad was black. They had a kid who was black, then they had twins, one black, one white. This was filmed when the older kid was about 5 and the twins perhaps 3. Dad put some music on, all three kids started dancing. The two black kids were great dancers - they got in the groove! The white kid was watching them and trying to join in, but just ended up jerking around with no rhythm.

    I've never forgotten that family.

  15. #40

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    That example would work except for the fact that this can also happen with the children of both white parents and of both black parents. Not only does one of my children lack in rhythm (how in the heck did that happen!) but I know several black people that can't dance. They "literally" can't dance! LOL
    - Tom

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  16. #41

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    Dont worry, Drummer, I am SO not chiming in here.........LOL......... so true!!
    Somebody open a window, cuz this boy is FUNKY
    Old School Mapex Funk 7 piece
    Iron Cobra, Sabian, Evans, Pro-Mark
    Currently laying down grooves for my power funk trio Off The Hook and The Sho Nuf Blues Kings.

  17. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by drummer View Post
    That example would work except for the fact that this can also happen with the children of both white parents and of both black parents. Not only does one of my children lack in rhythm (how in the heck did that happen!) but I know several black people that can't dance. They "literally" can't dance! LOL
    Yes, of course, it's only 3 children, and besides we know not all white people are the same and not all black people are the same.

    But what I'm interested in is are there some people who can't develop a sense of rhythm no matter what, just like there seem to be some people (very few) who are genuinely tone deaf? And in a child who doesn't have much sense of rhythm, how can you nurture it?

    For myself, I have quite an acute sense of rhythm, by that I mean it bothers me hugely when someone else is out, even by a little. Was I born that way or did it develop because I spent years counting out rhythms?

  18. #43

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    i too think that some people are born with natural talent, yet the thing that really makes people into great drummers is passion. If you drive towards your goal, you'll obviously do much better than someone who relaxes and doesn't try.

    However, I think another factor that determines how much natural talent on the drums or any other instrument for that matter is what kind of music or how much music you listened to as you grew up. I've read stories about drum prodigies who, as soon as they were born, were put in a room filled with various music like jazz. Soon, they may have been tapping along. The more complex or influential the music is, the better, because the kids learn to recognize more complex things at a younger age. When they grow older, they may have rhythm already built into their brain from hearing music so much as a child.

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  19. #44

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    i dont know what people will think about this but coming from a musical family i would say genetics is only important in the fact that you need hands, feet, and a brain to control them... its all about the captain of the ship, not the ship in the case of the drums...

    the earlier you are introduced to music (or anything for that matter) the better you will be at it... just look at jacob armen... his dad played jazz music almost 24/7 next to his crib when he was a baby... by the time he was 8 he was on TV playing with a big band and blasting through 15 minute solo's... you could say he is a natural... BUT, think for a second if his dad didnt raise him from birth to be a jazz musician.. do think he would just be a master of the drums by 8 or just another kid...

    long story short... i think its all about the development of the brain... and because the brain is always changing... just listen to as much music as you can and use your imagination as much as possible.. your genetics dont have anything to do with your groove...

  20. #45

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    I definitely think there is a lot of genetics involved. Here's my story:
    I'm the only musician in my family for as far back as my family can remember. I've been playing for about 6 years now and I consider myself to be a good drummer. But I've heard some of my drummer friends play that have been playing for the same amount of time or less and some their playing just puts me to shame. They all have been playing around the same time as me but sure enough, their parents were musicians.

    I'm not saying I'm a bad drummer but I wish my parents were musicians...

  21. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZACK B View Post
    i dont know what people will think about this but coming from a musical family i would say genetics is only important in the fact that you need hands, feet, and a brain to control them... its all about the captain of the ship, not the ship in the case of the drums...

    the earlier you are introduced to music (or anything for that matter) the better you will be at it... just look at jacob armen... his dad played jazz music almost 24/7 next to his crib when he was a baby... by the time he was 8 he was on TV playing with a big band and blasting through 15 minute solo's... you could say he is a natural... BUT, think for a second if his dad didnt raise him from birth to be a jazz musician.. do think he would just be a master of the drums by 8 or just another kid...

    long story short... i think its all about the development of the brain... and because the brain is always changing... just listen to as much music as you can and use your imagination as much as possible.. your genetics dont have anything to do with your groove...
    +1 so true !!
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  22. #47

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    Great thread and a lot of good posts. Thanks everyone for staying calm and diplomatic!
    - Tom

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    When you shop at Drum Bum or BuyGifts.com, you help with the costs of operating DrumChat.com. Please consider patronizing their fine stores. Whether you need unique music gifts for friends or just want a little something for yourself, Drum Bum is the place!

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  23. #48

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    I believe that you could put 100 people on one drum and maybe 98 of them could learn to keep the beat with one drum and maybe using both hands. A lot of them are going to fall out when you have to start moving those two hands and arms around to different locations and still not lose sense of timing.

    Add in the feet and legs and my guess would be that many many more will fall out because they simply will not have the coordination to keep everything moving to the right timing of the beat.

    Now let's look at imaginative creativity to play something different than a simple to the beat set and you have lost a lot more.

    I think you would be lucky if you ended up with any great players out of a subgroup of only 100 people.

  24. #49

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    I couldn't have been born into a less musical family if I had tried. Rhythm-less and tone deaf (that is the ones not totally deaf! LOL). I still after almost 40 years, am still a fairly simple drummer. I've come a long way. I guess something can be said for nurture and just plain old PASSION! I seemed to just connect with music at an early stage. Thanks to Hank Williams and the Beatles, Hermans Hermits etc...One night, watching the Ed Sullivan show, some pop band and I decided...that is what I wanna do! It was kinda like being over taken over by a spirit. I simply plowed forward in spite of the obsticles before me. I love my music as much now as then. Happy drumming!

    all the best...

  25. #50

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    OK, I have stayed out of this, but i feel I can add a little.


    WORK ETHIC TRUMPS ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Now, I am an assistant program Director and head of the Nuclear Medicine portion of a Radiology Residency and I have said a hundred times over and seen it throughout my training in medical school, residency and fellowship; Give me a Resident, medical student or any student for that matter with a good work ethic and I can make him or her into a Great Physician. I will take a medical student or resident with average grades and a great attitude and work ethic over the most talented person in the world with a poor work ethic because talent ( genetics ) means NOTHING without the drive to want to improve.

    The above goes for anything in life. It is the rare person that has both natural talent and voracious drive to want to improve. When that rare combination comes along it is when we see prodigies.... Buddy Rich, Einstein, Hawkins, etc

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