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Thread: First time recording

  1. #1

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    Hi guys, I need some advice

    I guess alot of people on here have alot of experience working with music producers and general tekkies, basically the singer in the band is a wannabe producer and we have started to record a few of our songs using his equipment etc (which I am really appreciative of, free recording is an asset not alot of bands have)

    So when I record drums, I play to a click, and I will play a generic groove, and if you were to listen to it, you would say its 100% in time. But on the screen the beats may be a split second out of time visually, to which he says 'your drums are out of time' and I assure him they are not, because i can hear the drums hitting right on the click, he then shifts the beat in the editing software to completely line up the beats, and then plays it, and it just sounds robotic and inorganic, its really starting to get to me

    So the question I am asking is this: Am I in my rights to put my foot down, say 'Im the stickman!' and demand that it is not edited to death and that I have a better ear for what is in time, simply because I am a drummer, or should I keep my mouth shut and accept that he is doing his job, I should stick to mine?

    what determines acceptable timing more, a computer program or my own two ears?

  2. #2

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    Hey AlphaGeek! I think you get recognition for the longest period between first 2 posts!

    I would say that you have to decide whether you are becoming so frustrated that you are willing to leave the band if the other guy doesn't give in to you. Unless you are, you will need to sit down and share your thoughts without ultimatums. Now if you just need to vent, we're here for you!
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  3. #3

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    Sticky situation. Quantizing and elasticizing drum track is tricky. It will definitely loose the natural ebb and flow if too overcorrected. My question is he using automatic time delay compensation on his tracks to ensure they are all lining up correctly onece he starts adding plug ins. If not, then he will get millisecond variations from track to track in the software.

  4. #4

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    I play to a click track most of the time in the studio. The reason being it is easier to edit a song or cut and paste parts of a song or performance. 1st of all no one is perfect. We are human. If everyone is playing to the click and after you play you mute the click and the groove sounds OK then only fix the beats or whatever is off. A snare hit here and there etc. I guarantee you some of the other players are off here and there too so that could cause a differentation in the groove when you are listening back with the click.
    You don't want a sterile performance. But if your good at playing with a click when you mute the click it it should sound pretty good. It's not as easy as people think to perform with a click. You have to be pretty good and have great timeing. The majority of drummers who come to my studio can't do it and they have to play with the rhythm section and it usually is ok. Like I said we are human and it is that slight fluctuation that makes it groove sometimes. Sort of like a brass section and if everyone was in perfect tune it would not sound as big and thick like when you hear a marching bands brass. I am not saying some be out of tune but everyone close enough that you can't really tell when the unit is performing. Thats the human part that sounds so good. Not being perfect. If your hitting on the one and three of the click tempo consistently within the measures you should be pretty close.

  5. #5

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    for a start it should take at least 5 takes to get the best drum track

    and yeah playing to a click sucks especially if there is not other instruments

    i would not worry if its only a few snare hits getting moved a few milli seconds don't stress about it

    in the end of the day you will have to let your "singer" do he's thing ...you wont be able to stop it

    its typical for a singer/producer to turn he's head sideways when leaving the room

    good luck
    Last edited by itchie; 05-04-2010 at 03:04 AM.

  6. #6

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    I agree with what everyone else has said so far, but there is another possibility - he could be having latency issues with his recording set up. Latency refers to the delay in transferring an analog audio signal into a digital format for recording, so if he is having issues with latenct the computer might be having trouble writing the recording data in time with your playing. The effect is that you perform in time, but on the playback it's all over the place or random sections get off time.

    A good way to test to see if he is having latency problems is to record something - it could be anything, drums, a rhythm guitar part, singing, someone clapping, anything. Then, try to overdub another track where you play along with that - clapping in time, or playing the part again or something. When you are recording that second track everyone will be able to hear that it is being recorded in time. Then play it back - if the two tracks don't line up the way they did when everyone heard them being recorded, then he's got latency problems.

    Latency can be tough to fix. Sometimes adjusting the sample rate in the recording program can do it. Other times the issue is the physical processing speed of the computer, and the only way to fix it is to use different equipment.
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  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by dt344 View Post
    I agree with what everyone else has said so far, but there is another possibility - he could be having latency issues with his recording set up. Latency refers to the delay in transferring an analog audio signal into a digital format for recording, so if he is having issues with latenct the computer might be having trouble writing the recording data in time with your playing. The effect is that you perform in time, but on the playback it's all over the place or random sections get off time.

    A good way to test to see if he is having latency problems is to record something - it could be anything, drums, a rhythm guitar part, singing, someone clapping, anything. Then, try to overdub another track where you play along with that - clapping in time, or playing the part again or something. When you are recording that second track everyone will be able to hear that it is being recorded in time. Then play it back - if the two tracks don't line up the way they did when everyone heard them being recorded, then he's got latency problems.

    Latency can be tough to fix. Sometimes adjusting the sample rate in the recording program can do it. Other times the issue is the physical processing speed of the computer, and the only way to fix it is to use different equipment.
    Automatic delay compensation....... Check the software you are using.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by nucjd View Post
    Automatic delay compensation....... Check the software you are using.
    If his computer doesn't have enough RAM to run the recording program, even automatic delay compensation isn't going to help.
    "Guys, if you wanted Superman for this gig, you should have hired Superman. Instead, you got Batman." - Donny Gruendler

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  9. #9

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    A guy I work with is a very accomplished professional drummer. He had this exact same situation, with the exact same results. However, his producer (not the singer) immediately recognized what you recognized - that playing right on the beat doesn't always sound the best. Sometimes you play behind, sometimes in front of the beat. That needs to be recognized before you can make progress.

    I would explain that to him, and have him listen to some music that plays off the beat a little bit. Maybe some Stevie Ray Vaughan or other stuff where it's pretty obvious. After that, you're just going to have to decide if this is a "hill worth dying on."
    Robert

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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by dt344 View Post
    If his computer doesn't have enough RAM to run the recording program, even automatic delay compensation isn't going to help.
    Talked to my brother who is a mixing engineer. He says the guy is quantizing to grid which takes ALL life out of the drums. Have him quantize at 70% instead of to grid (100%)

    ADC is not a plug in and does not tax the CPU or ram. it is a calculation done to adjust for latency caused by plugins. Obviously RAM is not a problem because the recording software is running. It depends on the software. Pro tools LE does not have ADC, however logic, reaper, pro tools HD etc does.

  11. #11

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    thanks for the replies

    well his computer is an Imac that is slow as £%$& :P but it cost him an arm and a leg so i would be better off not blaming that

    its not really band leaving issues, after all, he comes out with a song and everybody seems to love it regardless of what the drums sound like

    my issue is that it doesnt sound like ME playing the drums, it sounds like a computer program

    I think it is down to a preference of musical style, my favourite drummer is Jon Theodore and he has a very organic, 'get it in one take' style, sometimes he is out of time, but he is so awesome he makes it sound like he meant to do it

    I kinda like the point someone made about metronomes making it easier to edit, i guess i should see it from his side. But it gets to like the point where he wants a fill to be like 4-e-and-a, 4 snare hits, exactly the same tempo, exactly the same volume and if its not, he will slot in the first hit, and repeat it 4 times, i tell him many times, thats not drums! thats computer wizardry but he is having none of it he wants it perfect...

    who wants to be perfect?! :P

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaGeek View Post
    thanks for the replies

    well his computer is an Imac that is slow as £%$& :P but it cost him an arm and a leg so i would be better off not blaming that
    Please tell me you're kidding.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vida Perez View Post
    Please tell me you're kidding.
    oh trust me i know the imac is useless, its just its easier to let him think he made a wise investment rather than have him whinge at me

    i was like, £1600 for that piece of crap...

  14. #14

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    Latency suck thats why the pros have a dedicated hard drive just for tracking or use the HD24XR or ADAT Most pros still record to tape and hard disk simultaneously

  15. #15

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    Latency sucks thats why I use a HD24XR The pros wil use an HD or ADAT or a dedicated computer with everything turned off just for tracking while simultaneously recording to tape.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaGeek View Post
    oh trust me i know the imac is useless, its just its easier to let him think he made a wise investment rather than have him whinge at me

    i was like, £1600 for that piece of crap...


    you might understand now why drums are the first track to go down

    so all the other instruments can deal with it......suckers

    seriously! hardware audio latency what's it down to these days 2 ms, its still not enough
    Last edited by itchie; 05-13-2010 at 03:58 AM.

  17. #17

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    Hey Alpha-
    I think that your friend's quest for robot-like perfection is definitely part of the problem. But as far as the iMac being "slow". That sounds like a problem in itself. The new iMacs are fast as hell and have a ton of memory and chip speed, so if it's running too slowly when recording, his settings are wrong or there's an issue with the machine. Just my opinion- my girlfriend has a new iMac, and it's a beast, so I'm really surprised that that is happening. Other comments about sampling rate and latency could be identifying the culprit here as well.
    "I told people I was a drummer before I even had a set, I was a mental drummer."
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  18. #18

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    is it standard practice at the pro level to record drums piece by piece, i.e. intro, fill, verse, fill, chorus, verse, then frankenstein it all together?

    That is what we did, really because im not that tight, im quick and skillfull but im not the best at playing to a click and I could probably get about 30 seconds of acceptable drumming before it started to deteriorate and sound rubbish

    This is why i think it wasnt really a latency problem, it was just me being a bit rubbish! but i was listening back without the click and it sounded fine and 100% in time, he was just saying 'that bass drum is 0.2ms out of time' which might have been true, but I have been drumming for 10 years and i couldnt notice it...so i reckon 95% of the people listening to it would be none the wiser...

    is that me being a big noob or am i speaking the truth?

    edit: okay 0.2ms is probably quite noticable, but you get the idea...the computer telling him it didnt line up, i think a poster above called it 'gridifying' or something, making sure it all lines up perfectly
    Last edited by AlphaGeek; 05-13-2010 at 07:57 AM.

  19. #19

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    Multitrack changed everything, and digital recording upped that change by several orders of magnitude. At one time, we were thrilled to record a performance. Over the last couple of decades it seems that the emphasis has changed to performing a recording.

    If the guy is going to obsess over 0.2ms, then it's best not to argue with him. If you're consistently that close to machine-like "perfection" then the problem is him, not you. Most drummers I've worked with aren't as accurate as you.

    It sounds like he's used to working with loops and/or writing beats in something like Fruity Loops.

    If what he's doing produces acceptable demos and it's getting you gigs, let it slide, things could be a lot worse.

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