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Thread: Hot or cold cymbals?

  1. #1

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    Default Hot or cold cymbals?

    This one is for all of you science people out there.

    Would a cymbal that is in a hotter climate be more likely to crack than a cymbal in a colder climate? My drums are in my basement which can get pretty cold in the winter, and it made me wonder whether the temperature would have a difference or not on how strong the cymbal would be.
    Common sense tells me that if the cymbal is hotter, then the molecules in it would be moving faster which would result in the metal being more brittle. So at first I thought that that would mean that the cymbal would break more easily, but then I looked at it from a physics stand point: Impulse= Force x Time. So if the impulse is the same for both cymbals, and one has a greater time than the other, then that would mean that the colder cymbal would have a greater force applied to.
    So now i'm in a pickle. What do you guys think?
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  2. #2

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    Default Re: Hot or cold cymbals?

    I would think that the warmer a cymbal is, the more flexible it would be. Think about how they're made. A cymbal is shaped using heat to allow the metal to be malleable. So I would say that they would be more brittle in a colder climate. That being said, we're talking about extremes of the spectrum. The weather won't get hot enough for your cymbals to behave like rubber or cold enough for them to shatter like glass.
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  3. #3

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    Default Re: Hot or cold cymbals?

    It really doesn't take so much thinking lol, cold things crack and hot things melt.
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  4. #4

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    Default Re: Hot or cold cymbals?

    I made the mistake once of not having my kit under some shade at an outdoor gig. My Zildjian A 19" Med crash was out in direct sunlight as pictured below.


    You can see the shade line right across my 9"x13" tom. I noticed a big difference in tone (really washy) as I crashed it during a breakdown and I felt it flex more to a point where I thought I could of cracked it in half. I learned a valuable lesson after that incident, must keep cymbals cool.
    Last edited by late8; 10-20-2010 at 05:51 PM.

  5. #5

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    Default Re: Hot or cold cymbals?

    Quote Originally Posted by 32ndHeartBeat View Post
    It really doesn't take so much thinking lol, cold things crack and hot things melt.
    Yep.
    Matt

  6. #6

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    Default Re: Hot or cold cymbals?

    TD, I would say that your thinking is sound. Obviously, there will be a range (either hotter or colder) where it really won't make much difference. Outside of that range, in either direction though, you can start to have problems. Too cold, and the metal would become more brittle. Too hot and the metal would become more malleable. Obviously, you have to go to an extreme either way before there would be a problem. The truth is that poor cymbal technique will kill a cymbal faster.
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  7. #7

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    Default Re: Hot or cold cymbals?

    Cymbal manufacturers say that you should avoid extreme cold or heat, whatever that means exactly.

    Here are my two dollars to the discussion



    The atomic structure of metal (metal bond) is a crystalline arrangement of atoms which are "glued" together by a "sea of electrons" moving freely within the crystal lattice. It's those electrons which are responsible for the metal properties (malleability, luster, conductivity). Just think of a bunch of raisins (atoms) all held together by a pizza dough (electrons). You can work the dough (malleable) like you can work the metal. The raisins just slide against each other but still be connected by the dough. If you want to take off material from a metal you have to cut it using tools (here my dough model sucks). Think of lathing a cymbal that is done by using sharp tools to take of material.

    When a metal is hot, all the atoms/electrons vibrate (movement on an atomic level = heat), the distance between them becomes larger and the bonds between them weaker. The metal becomes soft. Soft metal can be worked much better than cold metal, that's why we heat up steel in order to forge it into shapes.

    If you cool down a metal the atoms/electrons don't bounce around so much and the atoms assume a more dense package with the bonds being stronger. Very cold metals are brittle and rather shatter when treated with a hammer than change shape. Pack the dough in the freezer for a while and then try to work it. It rather breaks.

    So the trend is clear. Colder conditions = more brittle, warmer conditions = softer

    Cymbals are made of a bronze alloy (Copper and tin) and that makes everything more complex. pure copper melts at 1085 degrees Celsius. Pure tin melts at 232 degrees Celsius. A cymbal made of B20 melts at about 920 degrees Celsius. When liquid bronze cools down below that temperature it is not exactely solid, there are different phases of the copper and tin mixture, because the tin component might still be liquid, but the copper not and the tin is moving about within the crystaline structure. Anyway, in some phases tin and copper are arranged in a way that is better for a cymbal than others. That is the reason cymbals are tempered and quenched, normally after the cup is formed. The cymbal is heated to about 800 degrees celsius. At this tempereture the atoms in the alloy form the right phase for a cymbal to sound good. To preserve the phase the metal is cooled down quickly in salt water. The cymbal now can be worked into shape by hammering, lathing etc.

    Sorry for the lecture, but now to the point

    when a cymbal is heated, the arrangement of atoms can assume a different phase again, e.g one that makes the material more brittle. But in order to change the structure in B20 bronze considerably it needs to be heated to about 350 degrees Celsius (please correct me if I'm wrong).

    So we should be on the safe side playing in the sun. However small structural changes take place even at lower temperatures, that's why a cymbal ages and changes the tone over time.

    So, your warm cymbal may feels different and sounds a bit different, because it is softer than normal, but it is not kaputt yet.

  8. #8

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    Default Re: Hot or cold cymbals?

    I commented about this topic/thought earlier......

    As I've said....I'm without question no "metallurgist"...that's for sure. People can believe what they want.....even back it up with scientific facts. But.....I've broken more cymbals in the cold winters than I ever did in the summer.

    I went through a stage in the 90's where I broke 7 cymbals in one-half year. (and it was during the winter...from late Nov until March) Thing is - they were all NEW. I spoke with "John P" (if any of you know the higher ups at Zildjian) and he told me that without question the cold temperatures that my cymbals were being stored in (they were on a truck) could have a negative effect on my cymbals if I was playing them when they were cold. He told me (begged me) to make sure they were room temperature before they were played.

    Up until then....usually my cymbals were the last thing to get put up when they set up my drums. As is the case with most drummers I imagine. So... I instructed our crew to take the cymbals out of their cases FIRST THING when they arrived at each venue...and then get them set up ASAP. ( I had a large cage back then).

    After this was done.....I stopped having problems.

    Yes...I've still broken a few cymbals since then....but I've attributed it to age and monkey-like cymbal technique at times.
    Last edited by EddieV; 10-21-2010 at 10:53 AM.
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  9. #9

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    Default Re: Hot or cold cymbals?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trommler View Post
    Here are my two dollars to the discussion
    (snip)
    What a terrific post, nicely done.

  10. #10

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    Default Re: Hot or cold cymbals?

    Temp has more of an effect on drumheads.
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  11. #11

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    Default Re: Hot or cold cymbals?

    I used to live in Canada and now in the Bahamas. I say emphatically...COLD is way worse on cymbals. Now if I could just do something with tis salty air!

    all the best...

  12. #12

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    Default Re: Hot or cold cymbals?

    I never lived in an area that dropped below freezing. My last home before California was Okinawa Japan. 95% humidity most of the year with temps in the balmy side of mid 80s to mid 90s. Winter chill and winds came in the form of Mancherian winds that blow in from China. The main issue was humidty and salt tainted air. Lots of rusty cars and moldy clothes in the closet.

    I'm glad I didn't have a kit during those times....

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