My drum teacher... Is one funny guy

[jordison515]

Okay. Last friday, he decided to spark a debate between us about triggers. Being a metal drummer, i was quick to defend myself and metal drummers for triggers... He's being recruited by a French Death metal band (he can't even pronounce the name), who asked him to trigger. I said why not? Triggers are for clarity! He said, no, triggers are cheating, and if i were to use them, i'd end up a Joey Jordison. I was immediately offended by this as joeys, well, my user is jordison515, what do you think? Anyway, in conclusion, i'm only ever allowed to trigger my bass drum. Only for clarity. Which is what triggers are for...
I'm going to be showing him this thread. I think he needs more people's opinions. What my ultimate conclusion would be is, why not record your own kit, it would solve all of his problems, wouldn't it?

[xweasel]

Okay. Last friday, he decided to spark a debate between us about triggers. Being a metal drummer, i was quick to defend myself and metal drummers for triggers... He's being recruited by a French Death metal band (he can't even pronounce the name), who asked him to trigger. I said why not? Triggers are for clarity! He said, no, triggers are cheating, and if i were to use them, i'd end up a Joey Jordison. I was immediately offended by this as joeys, well, my user is jordison515, what do you think? Anyway, in conclusion, i'm only ever allowed to trigger my bass drum. Only for clarity. Which is what triggers are for...
I'm going to be showing him this thread. I think he needs more people's opinions. What my ultimate conclusion would be is, why not record your own kit, it would solve all of his problems, wouldn't it?

I honestly do not see how triggers are cheating. They don't "clean up" your strokes (unless of course you record with them and then "quantize" the notes, but then you might as well just use a drum machine or a keyboard). They make each stroke more audible, so you can really clean up your playing. They're great for monitoring yourself, and if you play in a death metal band, you need some kind of noise (usually a "click"), that cuts through the downtuned guitars and bass and makes your kick strokes more audible to the audience.

And chances are, if you play in a death metal band, you'll be playing pretty damn fast and without triggers making each individual one of your strokes audible, the kick drum will end up sounding like a muddy wall of rumble.

WITH TRIGGERS--
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LorCMJfVtt0"]YouTube - George Kollias - 250bpm (audio)[/ame]

WITHOUT TRIGGERS--
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K9Bmfef6no&feature=related"]YouTube - Derek Roddy - 250bpm (audio)[/ame]

In a death metal setting, which do you think the audience will hear more clearly through the guitars + bass?

[xsabers]

I won't say triggers are cheating, but they can be used to make your strokes sound dynamically consistent even if you don't play consistent. Same with electronic drums though...

[xweasel]

I won't say triggers are cheating, but they can be used to make your strokes sound dynamically consistent even if you don't play consistent. Same with electronic drums though...

Without triggers, this guy would still be dynamically consistent and still pretty loud. But then, he's pretty much God. *bows* I also agree about the E-drums part. If triggers are considered cheating by some drummers, then a drummer playing an electric kit must be cheating.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQYJiEH_gD0"]YouTube - George Kollias - Feet Video[/ame]

[nio]

I don't believe its cheating either ...they just need that separation. I'm old school and I think this new style of playing is a bit interesting....it seems to be all about SPEED. I'm also surprised that electronics aren't used more often....forget triggering the acoustics...get a set of Roland TD20s.

[xweasel]

I don't believe its cheating either ...they just need that separation. I'm old school and I think this new style of playing is a bit interesting....it seems to be all about SPEED. I'm also surprised that electronics aren't used more often....forget triggering the acoustics...get a set of Roland TD20s.

TD20's don't look anywhere near as cool as huge acoustic sets

And you're right about speed being a huge factor in today's metal. Speed and technical ability. Groove comes second in metal... at least in my experience (being in a metal band). Since I don't often get to groove in my metal band, I'm also starting up a funk band, as I'm a lot more groove than speed and technical ability. Don't get me wrong, I'm relatively fast and have decent technical chops for someone who's been playing for 5 or 6 years, but laying down a simple, rock solid groove just feels so much better IMO.

[DLDante]

LOL! Why does everyone always want to hate on Jordison? The man has skills. Is he the greatest drummer ever? I'll argue that one. But you can't deny that he's a good drummer. "You'll end up a Joey Jordison" is a funny statement. So he's basically saying that you'll end up super famous with millions of fans and as many dollars? What a curse! LOL!

Can triggering be used as a cheat? Of course! Any time you bring electronics in you have the ability to alter your skills a bit. But I don't believe that is the motivation in the case of drummers like Jordison. I've seen several rehearsal videos and the guy has no trouble playing evenly. I think it's more of the fact that the music he plays kinda calls for it.

Now, regardless of whether it's used as a cheat to give you a consistent sound, you still gotta hit the trigger at 200 BPMs to produce the sounds. I couldn't do that at all right now. Not evenly or unevenly. Too fast for my feet. So you still gotta have some skills there even if you are using the trigger as a bit of a crutch.

[mind_drummer]

I know for fact that Flo Mounier use triggers only because he's too lazy.. no sorry, he dont like spending time to tune his bass drums each times in different venue. He prefer socialising, spending time with his fans and have enough time for relaxing his mind and warming up his limbs.

Like he said, when you're touring and spend so much time travelling, you dont want spending half to one hour just for tuning and sound check. Triggers does wonderful job at this...

[jajo]

I'm kind of old fashioned, so I don't find this type of playing interesting or musical.

I was having a hard time trying to follow the discussion, but since I play e-drums, I think I understand.

One of my complaints about my e-kit is the consistency of notes, regardless of how hard I strike. I believe the proper name is dynamic range. I can't really play/hear ghost notes, and I can't get a proper volume swell, like during a roll.

My kit does allow me to tune 3 different sounds on my snare, but they are clearly 'stepped' - soft, hard, rimshot.

This consistency of notes is why it doesn't matter if I play with sticks, brushes, or rutes.

Which brings me back to my first point. The ability to play 4 notes a second is interesting, but loses its flavor quickly for me. I don't like the sound. But, for some popular types of music, its necessary and I guess using triggers to get a consistent sound is required.

But, the player still has to be able to hit or trigger the sound consistently 4 times a second, so there is quite a bit of skill and talent involved.

[kaosotis]

I know for fact that Flo Mounier use triggers only because he's too lazy.. no sorry, he dont like spending time to tune his bass drums each times in different venue. He prefer socialising, spending time with his fans and have enough time for relaxing his mind and warming up his limbs.

Like he said, when you're touring and spend so much time travelling, you dont want spending half to one hour just for tuning and sound check. Triggers does wonderful job at this...

I'm not a fan of the type of metal that would need/use triggering, but I don't see it as cheating too much. But let's keep in mind that it does allow you to quantize the hits more easily since you are really just recording MIDI notes. So there is that aspect of it, making your playing more consistent. Truth is, that's done on acoustic kits as well nowadays, which is why everything sounds so "perfect" compared to old recordings.

For me, the cheating comes in tuning and getting a sound (if you think that's cheating). A studio guy I know said a lot of people are sampling other drum sounds and using those (Bonham's kick sound for example) on their recordings. He was implying big time recordings have triggered drums so they don't have to worry about getting the "right" drum sound.

Personally I'm not a fan of this idea because I feel like it takes some of the individuality out of finding your sound, but I can definitely see the lure for labels, studio engineers, producers, etc...

[xsabers]

I know for fact that Flo Mounier use triggers only because he's too lazy.. no sorry, he dont like spending time to tune his bass drums each times in different venue. He prefer socialising, spending time with his fans and have enough time for relaxing his mind and warming up his limbs.

Like he said, when you're touring and spend so much time travelling, you dont want spending half to one hour just for tuning and sound check. Triggers does wonderful job at this...

What, no drum tech to tune the kicks???

[Drumbledore]

A studio engineer friend of mine tells me that a trick he uses when recording death metal bands is to get the drummer to use a hybrid set up.....two TD-20 kicks and everything else acoustic. That way whatever effects such as gating, compression etc that he uses to separate the room sounds of the toms and cymbals will be affecting acoustic kicks (or some stuff like that, no way am I a sound engineer, lol).....bottom line is that he gets damn good results with it as the triggered kick sounds are even and consistent, which is what you need underneath all the distorted and downtuned guitars. It's just that it can at first be disorientating for an inexperienced player to feel the mesh pads with the feet whilst the hands are playing and acoustic set up, but once they're given it a chance, the recorded results really knock them out, he says.

[mind_drummer]

What, no drum tech to tune the kicks???

Nope ! Only one sound guy.

In Cryptopsy, everyone know exactly what they have to do. Unload the van or the U-Haul (in this case), setup the stage (Lights - Amps - Drums - Guitars - Mics - Etc...), give a damn of good show and then pack the stage back and load the gears in the U-Haul again.

If they could save money they will if having a drum tech isn't a real necessity. BTW, Triggers does a wonderful job saving money in their case...

[Larrysperf]

Nope Nuff said

[late8]

In my opinion, our job as drummers is to enhance the music and if that means the use of triggers and sampled voices, I'm all for it. We can't loose sight of the fan who spends money to buy the CD, then shells out money to see the show. That fan doesn't care if the drums are triggered or not, they just want to see a killer show. They want the show to sound like the CD they spent money to buy. It's the music that keeps it alive with or without techology.

[butter]

My opinion on Joey: He is a great drummer, but it's hard for me to respect him due to the band he is famous for.

My opinion on triggers: Triggers are only cheating if you use them to gain volume. When you reach high BPMs, like 260-280, the strokes of many drummers tend to become smaller. The logic in this is that the smaller the stroke, the less movement backward away from the head, the less distance the beater has to travel back to the next note, and the faster the stroke becomes. The only problem with this is that when the stroke is shorter, it becomes quieter. This can be avoided by simply using large strokes at high BPMs, but it is more difficult to do and requires a lot more power and technique.
Anyway, if a drummer uses the short, fast, quiet strokes, he needs a trigger. Triggers allow small volume to be amplified easier than a mic.

[xweasel]

My opinion on Joey: He is a great drummer, but it's hard for me to respect him due to the band he is famous for.

My opinion on triggers: Triggers are only cheating if you use them to gain volume. When you reach high BPMs, like 260-280, the strokes of many drummers tend to become smaller. The logic in this is that the smaller the stroke, the less movement backward away from the head, the less distance the beater has to travel back to the next note, and the faster the stroke becomes. The only problem with this is that when the stroke is shorter, it becomes quieter. This can be avoided by simply using large strokes at high BPMs, but it is more difficult to do and requires a lot more power and technique.
Anyway, if a drummer uses the short, fast, quiet strokes, he needs a trigger. Triggers allow small volume to be amplified easier than a mic.

I really respect Daniel Adair but I'm not a fan of Nickelback.

I believe you are referring to what is generally known as "tapping". I wouldn't go as far as calling it cheating but it's certainly looked down upon within the metal drumming community. People - including myself - see it as being extremely lazy. Making tiny little taps on the kick drum at a very fast tempo, like twitching, but people have to rely on the triggers for volume. Whereas drummers like Derek Roddy, George Kollias, Gene Hoglan, Vitek (RIP), Ukri Suvilehto, Tim Yeung, Mario Duplantier etc. can reach insane speeds yet get a huge amount of swing and power from their pedals, and not have to rely on triggers for volume.

[butter]

I really respect Daniel Adair but I'm not a fan of Nickelback.

I believe you are referring to what is generally known as "tapping". I wouldn't go as far as calling it cheating but it's certainly looked down upon within the metal drumming community. People - including myself - see it as being extremely lazy. Making tiny little taps on the kick drum at a very fast tempo, like twitching, but people have to rely on the triggers for volume. Whereas drummers like Derek Roddy, George Kollias, Gene Hoglan, Vitek (RIP), Ukri Suvilehto, Tim Yeung, Mario Duplantier etc. can reach insane speeds yet get a huge amount of swing and power from their pedals, and not have to rely on triggers for volume.

Exactly. The beaters come all the way back with those guys. Alright, it is certainly close to cheating