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Thread: What makes a drummer a 'musician'?

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    Default What makes a drummer a 'musician'?

    I've always wondered this... What makes a drummer a 'musician'? I'm constantly hearing people saying that *insert drummer's name here* drumming is extremely musical/unmusical. Many players also seem to be obsessed with the idea of becoming a musician, not just a drummer. What does that mean? When they say that, it seems to me that they think drummers are less of a musician than, say, a guitarist or a keyboardist.

    I've been told that when playing jazz, my playing should be more musical. Do they mean more rhythmically complex? More melodic? Creating drum harmonies by playing more than one drum at the same time? All three at the same time, seeing as rhythm, melody and harmony are three major components of music? Playing for what the song requires? If it's the latter, than why do people say that metal drumming is less musical than jazz drumming?

    This baffles me.
    - Zack

  2. #2

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    i also never really understood this.. but ive come to think of it as this: many people think a drummer who plays more complex stuff or rhythmically amazing stuff is musical, whereas simple punk beats are considered unmusical...

  3. #3

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    Here's what wiki has to say about percussion:

    Percussion is arguably the most versatile of any instrument family in that it can be used in practically every genre or style of music. In an orchestral setting, percussionists are generally called on to provide different textures in the ensemble. Some percussion instruments are more commonly used than others. Timpani, for example, has been seen in Western classical music since the 17th century and became a standard orchestral instrument long before many other percussion instruments. Snare drum, bass drum, and crash cymbals were adopted soon thereafter and quickly became associated with the orchestra as well.

    I agree. I would also add that in modern music - rock, blues, punk, metal, that drums have been around longer than any of the other instruments in the band (and in one form or another longer than keyboards too).

    Each component of music, harmony, melody, rhythm, and dynamics supports and influences the other parts, and is integral to the finished piece.

    So in other words, drummers are musicians.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pastor_bob View Post
    Well, if you've ever heard me play the drums, you might think that I'm appropriating them for some purpose other than their original design!

  4. #4

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    Lol...don't worry....I'm sure there are a bunch of guitarists, keyboardists, horn players, etc that play....but sound like they're practicising scales instead of music. I think what might be the essence of being a musician is this: active listening.

    So say, if you're playing at a jam, and the guys work out a nice ballad-like tune. If you keep saying to yourself "Oh, that change from the verse to chorus would be perfect for that flamadiddle I've been working on all week!" then that's why you get rude stares from the band. You'd be far better off doing a couple of single tom hits, for example....anything that will be smooth and no fuss.

    On the other hand though, if you happen to play or jam with high calibre players (for which timing is a must) then sometimes (not always!) you might be expected to pull off that difficult fill, breakneck tempo, or time signature. And if all you know are stock-standard 4/4 grooves, then you're not playing musically in that situation either.

    What can be a little frustrating is noticing that some musicians stay just within their own comfort zone, having friends with similar music tastes, etc. I'd be the first one to say that that is exactly what you should try to avoid if you want to be a great musician (by the way, if anyone tries to tell you that metal music isn't really music, tell them to go to hell...there are a ton of little known metal musicians who are broadly diversified...guitarists with classical training, drummers with blues and shuffle backgrounds....list goes on).

    Just keep pushing the envelope everyday. Or do what I do sometimes......pick a genre that you have no idea about (even one that you might detest!) and see if you can play that part as though you're auditioning for that artist or group. Can you do it? Are the fills, accents, and tempos right? Have you picked the right combinations of sound? Can you not use your double pedal? Ask yourself all these questions as you play along with it. If you can play it and there isn't a great difference between the recording and your playing, then you must also be playing it right....because imagine what the drummer on the recording went through to lock everything in correctly. Just as a less-experienced yet 'complex' player would make a dog's breakfast out of a simple pop tune, so too a simple player might not be able nail all the necessary parts in a band like say, Dream Theater (as thousands of online debates would tell you ;-) ). So being a musical drummer has a lot to do within the context of what you are playing.....make your ears as fast as your hands and feet, because what you hear being played by the group will determine what you will play as a result.
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  5. #5

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    Basically what everybody else said. It's basically playing to compliment whatever music you're backing. Travis Orbin does a good job of explaining and demonstrating this. In most of his videos, you can see sort of a play-by-play of his playing in the "More Info" box. He usually points out different grooves or accents he does to compliment whatever he's playing to.
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  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbledore View Post
    ... being a musical drummer has a lot to do within the context of what you are playing.....make your ears as fast as your hands and feet, because what you hear being played by the group will determine what you will play as a result.
    Brilliant. Sums it up in one sentence. It has absolutely noting to do with melodics or complexity. A guy playing a swing tune with 4 in the bar ride cymbal, and a cross stick on "4" can be more musical then the guy playing a million notes a second. Even if the rest of the band are playing a million notes a second. If the person playing it simple is listening, maybe increasing and decreasing the volume with them, or even, driving harder and louder to push a soloist to greater heights. Note though, that the guy playing a million notes a second, can be musical too, even if the rest of the band is playing simply, as long as he's doing it subtly and it doesn't stand out as, "What the heck is that drummer doing?" to the audience and the rest of the band.

    Go listen to a lot of bands. Live rather than on Youtube, because on youtube, and to a degree even on DVD's, the dynamics will have been compressed to death. When you watch a band, of any genre, listen to how what the drummer plays fits in with the band. How he changes what he plays during the song. How he plays when they are soloing, does he play louder to push them, or quieter to make them stand out? End of the day, that's a judgement call that you will only start to get consistently right after watching and playing a lot of gigs. Simple thing, If I'm playing and someone does a bass solo, I will tend to play mainly Hi-Hat and snare, plus VERY simple, sparse Bass Drum. This leaves all the Bas frequencies clear for the solo to stand out. Also, usually, when someone is soloing, it's their turn in the spotlight, so keep it simple...er...usually. Quick tip, If someone solo's, Watch them as well as listen to them. I have no idea why, but I always find this helps me to play something appropriate to accompany their solo.

    Sometimes a really simple thing can be really musical, classic example is:- When a lot of pop/rock/metal records are made, the drummer will play Hi-Hat all the way through, but, there will be things like tambourine overdubbed which gives the music a "lift" during the choruses. So playing ride on the chorus, rather than hi-hat can give a similar lift when playing live, and be a really musical thing to do.

    Drumbledore's sentence still sums it up though.

    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
    Brilliant. Sums it up in one sentence. It has absolutely noting to do with melodics or complexity.

    Sometimes a really simple thing can be really musical, classic example is:- When a lot of pop/rock/metal records are made, the drummer will play Hi-Hat all the way through, but, there will be things like tambourine overdubbed which gives the music a "lift" during the choruses. So playing ride on the chorus, rather than hi-hat can give a similar lift when playing live, and be a really musical thing to do.

    Drumbledore's sentence still sums it up though.

    Andy
    Thanks Andy,man. Sounds like you've done a lotta gigging too hey? Wow....you're in Mallorca? What's living there like? Is there more of a Spanish atmosphere or is it mixed or what?

    Quite true......on a jazz gig you don't have to rip like Buddy Rich every few bars.....a simple spang-a-lang with the rimclick on four and the four to the floor quiet bass drum is what's more required. I dunno....I get days jamming where I feel I can't remember 'comping' figures from my own personal practice, but that doesn't matter because the sax player will say to me later "Nice swing, man!" So I don't get into a blind panic....so long as I keep the 'straight ahead' going, everything else will come along when I interact with the others. Oh...and brushes....the old-school jazzers get a buzz when a young 'un like me (pfft..well, 39 yrs) can pull out and do some good brushwork.....meaning nice slow sweeps, not showing off.

    By the way, nice Kenny Clare quote...I've only just started discovering him.
    Cheers.
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  8. #8

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    playing for the sake of the music and not for the other drummers in the audience

  9. #9

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    I wouldn't use the word musical to describe a drummer. Probably fast or groovy or something like that. Metal drummers tend to get a lot of trash talk too. People say that all they do is blast, which in some cases is true, but relatively rare. In my humble opinion, some genres of metal can be as complex or more complex than jazz. Metalcore, progressive metal, and expiramental metal are all genres that don't show up in the stereotypical metal scene, and have amazingly complex drums and guitar parts. The reason they don't get much credit is because their names arent really out there.
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  10. #10

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    Blending with whats going on around you musically. Listening to and complementing the other musicians musical statements with your own.
    It also helps immensely to know and understand formal musical terminology.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbledore View Post
    Lol...don't worry....I'm sure there are a bunch of guitarists, keyboardists, horn players, etc that play....but sound like they're practicising scales instead of music. I think what might be the essence of being a musician is this: active listening.

    So say, if you're playing at a jam, and the guys work out a nice ballad-like tune. If you keep saying to yourself "Oh, that change from the verse to chorus would be perfect for that flamadiddle I've been working on all week!" then that's why you get rude stares from the band. You'd be far better off doing a couple of single tom hits, for example....anything that will be smooth and no fuss.

    On the other hand though, if you happen to play or jam with high calibre players (for which timing is a must) then sometimes (not always!) you might be expected to pull off that difficult fill, breakneck tempo, or time signature. And if all you know are stock-standard 4/4 grooves, then you're not playing musically in that situation either.

    What can be a little frustrating is noticing that some musicians stay just within their own comfort zone, having friends with similar music tastes, etc. I'd be the first one to say that that is exactly what you should try to avoid if you want to be a great musician (by the way, if anyone tries to tell you that metal music isn't really music, tell them to go to hell...there are a ton of little known metal musicians who are broadly diversified...guitarists with classical training, drummers with blues and shuffle backgrounds....list goes on).

    Just keep pushing the envelope everyday. Or do what I do sometimes......pick a genre that you have no idea about (even one that you might detest!) and see if you can play that part as though you're auditioning for that artist or group. Can you do it? Are the fills, accents, and tempos right? Have you picked the right combinations of sound? Can you not use your double pedal? Ask yourself all these questions as you play along with it. If you can play it and there isn't a great difference between the recording and your playing, then you must also be playing it right....because imagine what the drummer on the recording went through to lock everything in correctly. Just as a less-experienced yet 'complex' player would make a dog's breakfast out of a simple pop tune, so too a simple player might not be able nail all the necessary parts in a band like say, Dream Theater (as thousands of online debates would tell you ;-) ). So being a musical drummer has a lot to do within the context of what you are playing.....make your ears as fast as your hands and feet, because what you hear being played by the group will determine what you will play as a result.
    Drumbledore, please correct me if I am interpreting this wrong. I have thought of this being summed up as "feel." As someone still learning, my drum teacher is working to take me for the technically correct drumming to drumming with feel. As I read your explanation, which as Andy noted was brilliant, I couldn't help but thinking that this is the "feel" of drumming that I am working to aquire. Am I thinking about this correctly?
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  12. #12

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    PB, are you talking about the 'feel' of the tune you are playing? I mean, that is the thing that should be a drummer's priority. Whether it's the rock-solid feel of Ringo or Charlie Watt's playing, the slick yet laidback feel of a Steve Gadd samba, the odd-meter of a Greek wedding band or the hammer-precision of speed metal double-kick, how those notes are placed will affect how you feel and therefore how well you can keep the reins on the band. So are you just talking about the feel, tempo, groove etc of whatever style...or more than that?
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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by xweasel View Post
    I've always wondered this... What makes a drummer a 'musician'? I'm constantly hearing people saying that *insert drummer's name here* drumming is extremely musical/unmusical. Many players also seem to be obsessed with the idea of becoming a musician, not just a drummer. What does that mean? When they say that, it seems to me that they think drummers are less of a musician than, say, a guitarist or a keyboardist.

    I've been told that when playing jazz, my playing should be more musical. Do they mean more rhythmically complex? More melodic? Creating drum harmonies by playing more than one drum at the same time? All three at the same time, seeing as rhythm, melody and harmony are three major components of music? Playing for what the song requires? If it's the latter, than why do people say that metal drumming is less musical than jazz drumming?

    This baffles me.
    Good thoughts, and I think the anawer to musician depends on the crowd you're with when the question is asked. "Musician" is so generic a term the expectations to the answer is determined by who's doing the asking. Zappa was way, way outspoken on this.

    It's your second question about being musical that I think is interesting. If you're playing jazz and someone tells you to be more musical, and you're left wondering what they mean because they can't explain or tell you, then that's your answer. They don't know any more then you do. They just know to them, this isn't it. These are standard barriers that you and your friends will break as you expand your horizons. If you were playing with a seasoned jazz musician, they'd tell you exactly what they want be it some greasy Dixieland, independence of Bop and Swing or some laid back, soulful of acid jazz.

  14. #14

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    The word texture comes to mind when hear great musical drummers like Ringo. I had to cover many Beatles tune in my last effort with the classic rock band I was in recently. Ringo fills sounded musical to me, as if he was "singing" along with John and Paul by using his toms and bass drum and texturing it with his cymbals.

    If you listen to Ringo play, it's very sparse at times but as the music weaves in and out of different time signatures his groove to me is what keeps the band glued together.

  15. #15

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    six strings and an amp.
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  16. #16

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    I am a drummer. Not a musician. Don't ever call me one. I don't do scales, chords, harmonies, or melodies. And even then, I consider myself someone who plays drums, not a drummer.
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  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbledore View Post
    PB, are you talking about the 'feel' of the tune you are playing? I mean, that is the thing that should be a drummer's priority. Whether it's the rock-solid feel of Ringo or Charlie Watt's playing, the slick yet laidback feel of a Steve Gadd samba, the odd-meter of a Greek wedding band or the hammer-precision of speed metal double-kick, how those notes are placed will affect how you feel and therefore how well you can keep the reins on the band. So are you just talking about the feel, tempo, groove etc of whatever style...or more than that?
    Well, you are stretching the boundaries of my understanding at this point Drumbledore, but yes. When I think of "feel" I think of dynamics, and about not so much playing roboticly what is written, getting the feel of the style. Of course, there are different feels within each style, so feeling the music and playing within that is what I was thinking. To me, this is what I thought you were saying - playing musically is about being able to "feel" the music coming from the other musicians and being able to go with that feel. Am I close?
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  18. #18

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    Here is my take on this matter. Yes, drummers are considered musicians as are others who play noted instruments. However, the musicality is a relative term....they are not created equal. In addition, it is very subjective.

    In my opinion, the musicality of a person depends largely on how expressive he/she is when playing. This holds true for any instrument, as some have posted already....just because you can play the notes, doesn't mean you are being expressive. To exaggerate this point, BB King is more expressive than Steve Vai or Jeff Beck. Joey Jordison is not as expressive as John Bonham. However, in these examples, the less expressive player is certainly more technical. So, there is a lot to it and it all depends on what you like.

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    hmm I could get in big trouble with this thread, so here goes.


    uuugh, I chickened out,

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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratmycue View Post
    hmm I could get in big trouble with this thread, so here goes.


    uuugh, I chickened out,

    Happy Holidays peeps.
    Ahhhh, a sure sign of sanity!! Well played, and Happy Holidays Rat!
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    Well, I'm going to say it, and it shows my lack of knowledge but here it is. I always reguarded a "Musician" as an individual who has tenior and has a vast knowledge of different styles (Rock,Pop,Jazz ect.) and is proficiant in each style, meaning you can play any one of each or mix any one of each to create a new style. To me it's being proficiant in more than one instrument also, Piano or Guitar or Drums or any combo but not necessarily all.

    Right or wrong, thats just my opinion of what a musician is.

    As far as being "musical", to me it's having a natural knack at feeling out songs. I'm in that process now. Feeling what a guitarist is playing and where he's going, and it appears alot of this is just a matter of getting to know other band members and thier tendancies.

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  22. #22

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    To me this sounds like music, and its played by only drummers, thus so, drummers are musicians.

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  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by pastor_bob View Post
    Well, you are stretching the boundaries of my understanding at this point Drumbledore, but yes. When I think of "feel" I think of dynamics, and about not so much playing roboticly what is written, getting the feel of the style. Of course, there are different feels within each style, so feeling the music and playing within that is what I was thinking. To me, this is what I thought you were saying - playing musically is about being able to "feel" the music coming from the other musicians and being able to go with that feel. Am I close?
    You're right on it PB! The hardest thing in the world is to play from a chart, when say learning a new song at a drum lesson, without feeling robotic...because at first you're thinking about it.....that's the intellectual side of your brain working...after a few repeats, your intuitive side kicks in, when you get the feel. That all and said, it's one thing to copy the feel of your favourite drummer on CD or MP3....it's another thing to call up that feel when playing with live musicians, some people struggle with it. But a great drummer can call up a wide range of feels in any situation he or she is thrown into, listening out for the changes, the dynamics, the stops and the 'form' of the piece.

    PB, sounds like your drum teacher is teaching you right, keep going my friend!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jafo View Post
    Well, I'm going to say it, and it shows my lack of knowledge but here it is. I always reguarded a "Musician" as an individual who has tenior and has a vast knowledge of different styles (Rock,Pop,Jazz ect.) and is proficiant in each style, meaning you can play any one of each or mix any one of each to create a new style. To me it's being proficiant in more than one instrument also, Piano or Guitar or Drums or any combo but not necessarily all.

    Right or wrong, thats just my opinion of what a musician is.

    As far as being "musical", to me it's having a natural knack at feeling out songs. I'm in that process now. Feeling what a guitarist is playing and where he's going, and it appears alot of this is just a matter of getting to know other band members and thier tendancies.
    Certainly is a very valid point of view too, Jafo. The worse thing you can do is to say you don't need music theory to express yourself. Even if as a drummer you can't play guitar or piano, at least understand what some chord progressions do, because your job will be to accompany musicians who play them. I've heard piano theory virtually all my life as my Mum's classically trained on piano (she gave up a career of piano playing to go into nursing, but at the age of 72, she can still read damn well)....I also had an aunt who taught tons of students piano, and for a short while I lived right next door to the local piano tuning business run by a mate's family. So it's kind of ironic that all that theory I ran away from as a budding drummer I now have to recall every scrap of it for playing tuned percussion, because xylophones, marimbas etc have bars arranged exactly as a piano!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbledore View Post
    You're right on it PB! The hardest thing in the world is to play from a chart, when say learning a new song at a drum lesson, without feeling robotic...because at first you're thinking about it.....that's the intellectual side of your brain working...after a few repeats, your intuitive side kicks in, when you get the feel. That all and said, it's one thing to copy the feel of your favourite drummer on CD or MP3....it's another thing to call up that feel when playing with live musicians, some people struggle with it. But a great drummer can call up a wide range of feels in any situation he or she is thrown into, listening out for the changes, the dynamics, the stops and the 'form' of the piece.

    PB, sounds like your drum teacher is teaching you right, keep going my friend!
    Thanks Drumbledore. My teacher tells me that my biggest problem is that I think too much. I know she's right, and I am trying hard to overcome it, but I grew up thinking as a scientist, and not a creative musician. It is taking me time to learn how to think in more creative ways. I'm a left brain guy doing a right brain thing, and I'm getting lots of brain cramps right now! My teacher has had to cope with the fact that to learn something, I have to understand it first. I analyze everything in order to learn it.
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