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Thread: Has this happened to you with practicing a song?

  1. #1

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    Default Has this happened to you with practicing a song?

    Usually when I learn a song I can either get it or I try to figure it out, break it down, slow it down til I get it. If I can't touch I song yet, I wait and try another time.

    I guess being that this is the first Rush song I'm trying to learn, "Armor and Sword", and since there is more going on, it's the first time that this has happened to me.

    I first played through the song, got through it without all the fills, rolls, cymbals. Just the simple basic (if you will) beats. Then I started adding more fills, cymbals, etc. in between to sound closer to the original song. And there are 2 parts in the song where I used to play it through it no problem. Started adding things and it was like my brain erased those two parts, that I played before. I can't get it. And it's driving me crazy because I know that this has to be stored somewhere in my brain. If I did it before I should be able to play it again right? Does this happen to anyone else?

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  2. #2

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    Any tune that has detailed progressive parts you just can't get in one or two goes. I'm being serious here....sometimes you are going to really have to break it down bar by bar, note for note. Learn one section at a time. We're lucky that YouTube is available nowadays, as there are some great drummers who can duplicate guys like Neil Peart to the nth degree, one of many examples that stands out is AstroTama, he does a killer job. Watch guys like him, or getting away from the Peart imitators, check out another guy called froggpond1....he's covered people like Simon Phillips, Mike Portnoy, Jeff Porcaro, Phil Collins and many others. But if you're going to head down the progressive path, whether for fun or more seriously, you'd be crazy not to know rudiments, meters and most importantly song form, as a characteristc thing about this style of music is that they take a bit of their cue from classical forms, not just necessarily the usual pop form of intro-verse-chorus-verse-bridge-chorus-outro, etc. Personally, I think "Armor And Sword" is probably a little ambitious to try as a first Rush song...why not try an easier one like "Nobody's Hero" from Counterparts, "Resist" from Test For Echo (which has a nice swing feel to it) or " The Pass" from Presto?
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  3. #3

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    Once again, with more difficult songs you have to learn the song before you learn the drums. You should be able to hear the song from start to finish in your head before you start learning the drums. Or at least break it down to each movement or section of the song and then go back and learn the drums. I'm not sure how you teach this to someone. It depends on how you relate to music. You can't go wrong with breaking the song down measure by measure. The intro is this many measures long. The verses are this many measures long. The solo is this, the bridge is this, etc. I have a book around that I used over the years that was nothing but a song title followed by 4, 8, 8, 4, 8, 8, 4, 16, 8, 8, 4, time signatures and bpm. More then once when playing new songs I wasn't comfortable with I had this written on my snare head.

    You need to discover whatever it takes for you. Find your own system. What Drumbledore says may be true for you also. I'm not familiar with this song, but maybe it's overly ambitious to start down this road with. Like everything else, it's easier to start with less ambitious music and work your way up to the harder stuff. Try developing your own process with songs you already know. Break them down to a system you can translate to the harder stuff. The more you do this, the easier it gets.

    It's not that doing everything by memorizing the drums doesn't work, but when songs are coming at you at a pace that doesn't work with memory, there's just not enough time to work with memory alone. At least not for me.

    I hope this makes sense to you?

  4. #4

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    If I read your post right, then something very similar happened to me one time. I got bored of playing the same stuff, so I put on Squeeze Box by The Who. The first time I played it, I hit EVERYTHING. Not note for note, but it was basically a perfect run through. I had so much fun that I wanted to play it again. The second time around, I was so preoccupied trying to remember what I did the first time that I kept messing up. What I'm getting at is maybe don't focus so hard on hitting everything perfectly. Have some fun with it and don't worry too much about remembering every stroke you do. The more you try to concentrate on certain intricacies, the easier it'll be to lose your place or miss a cue in the song because you aren't paying attention to the song itself.

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  5. #5

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    In my teens, I used to record the RUSH songs down to our reel-to-reel. It has the ability to slow down the play. For some parts, I actually had to do that to hear what was really going on. Sometimes, you have to write the drum notation so that you have a reference when you're supposed to come in and what to play. With so much going on in RUSH songs, its easy to forget or get out of sync with the song when you're still learning it. Keep on trying, LL. Being able to play a RUSH song note-for-note is quite a challenge and should leave you with a great feeling of accomplishment.

  6. #6

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    This kinda happened to me during a lesson one time. I got put on the spot by my teacher to come up with a new beat on the spot. I did and it was kinda cool. For the life of me, I cannot recall that beat. I sat there one night and tried to simulate it and just couldn't get it right. From then on if I work on new beats and get one I like, I notate it down. If I don't I'll loose it for sure.

    As for your dilemma, can't you just relearn it? After you do, jot it down.

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  7. #7

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    Listen to the song a billion times. Repeat is on iTunes for a reason.
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  8. #8

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    Thank you for your advice and for your experiences. It's nice to see things from different points of view and to have different ideas I can try to get it.

    @Drumbledore, I'm a fan of AstroTama, he's awesome. He did a video for this song but it's pulled, so I can't watch it. Would love to see it. I will look into the other videos and songs you mentioned also.

    @Riverr1, I will try to write notes on those two parts, I used to do that with keyboards and it helped.

    @NIM, it makes a lot of sense what you say about thinking about what your playing and I believe that is what's blocking my mind because I was fine until I started adding more to it. Every time I listen to the song I hear something extra to add. I think I'll work with what I have and stick to that until I get it as best as I can. I'll be happy with that.

    @nio, it would be cool if I could slow down the song, that's another great idea but I don't have anything to do that with now, maybe in the future. Something to think about, would be very helpful with a lot of songs. And thanks for encouraging me to keep trying.

    @jafo, I'll try breaking it down and relearning it. Not much to break down though lol It's not a hard part to play compared to all the other stuff. That's why it's driving me nuts! And I will make notes. Maybe that's all I need to do. We'll see.

    For now I play for fun. But I'm serious about playing as best as I could. I picked this song because I love the drum part so much. I listen to this so many times, every day. I'm so glad I tried it because even though I'm not a pro, I can't believe how far I got with this song, so I have to keep trying and I'm determined to get those two parts again. With all these ideas it has to work

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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordison515 View Post
    Listen to the song a billion times. Repeat is on iTunes for a reason.
    True. I thought 100 was enough but I'll go with a billion.

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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbledore View Post
    Any tune that has detailed progressive parts you just can't get in one or two goes. I'm being serious here....sometimes you are going to really have to break it down bar by bar, note for note. Learn one section at a time. We're lucky that YouTube is available nowadays, as there are some great drummers who can duplicate guys like Neil Peart to the nth degree, one of many examples that stands out is AstroTama, he does a killer job. Watch guys like him, or getting away from the Peart imitators, check out another guy called froggpond1....he's covered people like Simon Phillips, Mike Portnoy, Jeff Porcaro, Phil Collins and many others. But if you're going to head down the progressive path, whether for fun or more seriously, you'd be crazy not to know rudiments, meters and most importantly song form, as a characteristc thing about this style of music is that they take a bit of their cue from classical forms, not just necessarily the usual pop form of intro-verse-chorus-verse-bridge-chorus-outro, etc. Personally, I think "Armor And Sword" is probably a little ambitious to try as a first Rush song...why not try an easier one like "Nobody's Hero" from Counterparts, "Resist" from Test For Echo (which has a nice swing feel to it) or " The Pass" from Presto?
    +++++1. Also check out Pauliewanna's channel as well. He has been instrumental in my attempts to emulate Mr. Peart.
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  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by LL70 View Post
    Thank you for your advice and for your experiences. It's nice to see things from different points of view and to have different ideas I can try to get it.

    @nio, it would be cool if I could slow down the song, that's another great idea but I don't have anything to do that with now, maybe in the future. Something to think about, would be very helpful with a lot of songs. And thanks for encouraging me to keep trying.
    LL70, believe it or not, most music players out there gives you the ability to play the songs in adjustable speed without changing the pitch. Even Windows Media Player that comes free in Windows allows you to set the speed to Slow, Normal (default), or Fast. Just right click on the top bar (where the Windows Media Player label is on) and select Play -> Play Speed.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolvie56 View Post
    +++++1. Also check out Pauliewanna's channel as well. He has been instrumental in my attempts to emulate Mr. Peart.
    Thanks, I will check Pauliewanna out.

    Quote Originally Posted by nio View Post
    LL70, believe it or not, most music players out there gives you the ability to play the songs in adjustable speed without changing the pitch. Even Windows Media Player that comes free in Windows allows you to set the speed to Slow, Normal (default), or Fast. Just right click on the top bar (where the Windows Media Player label is on) and select Play -> Play Speed.
    Never thought about that. I didn't know you can change the speed on Windows Media Player. Thanks so much!

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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by nio View Post
    LL70, believe it or not, most music players out there gives you the ability to play the songs in adjustable speed without changing the pitch. Even Windows Media Player that comes free in Windows allows you to set the speed to Slow, Normal (default), or Fast. Just right click on the top bar (where the Windows Media Player label is on) and select Play -> Play Speed.
    I think I am missing something... How do you do this? Could you post more specific instructions as to where you click in order to find that menu?
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  14. #14

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    Yeah, I didn't know this either. I was all ready to spend $70.00 bucks on a program to do this very same thing. It slows it down while keeping the tone the same. I'm impressed. Thanks nio.

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  15. #15

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    Hello,

    Thanks for the good words!

    The problem you mention happens to me all the time too. Even worse, it often happens in some spots in songs I have been playing for decades (e.g. I was rehearsing with my Rush tribute band last weekend and at the end of "The Spirit of Radio", I suddenly had a complete blank on one of the fills and messed it up really badly...). It's part of being human I guess.

    Programming a brain for playing complex songs like Rush stuff is an interesting exercise. In my case, when I cannot nail something, even if I know how to play it, I give it a rest. Next time I try, it might be there... or not! It takes time to assimilate all of this stuff. When I suddenly forget how to play something or just cannot do something that I used to be able to, I usually don't fight it too much. Most of the time, I'll just listen to the song again and figure it out in my head first, not sitting at the kit. In fact, that's the way I learn songs. I visualize them in my head first, details by details, so when I sit down first to play it, I don't get too frustrated. Playing Rush songs is a very mental thing and you cannot think too much. It has to be automatic. Only preparation can help with this. This is why Neil himself practices so much before a tour.

    For the videos: Yes, YT has blocked many of my videos. It sucks. I'll send you another link for "Armor and Sword"...

    Good luck!

  16. #16

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    If you have a Mac do the same thing in Quicktime Player or download free Audacity and do it in there.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Astrotama View Post
    Hello,

    Thanks for the good words!

    The problem you mention happens to me all the time too. Even worse, it often happens in some spots in songs I have been playing for decades (e.g. I was rehearsing with my Rush tribute band last weekend and at the end of "The Spirit of Radio", I suddenly had a complete blank on one of the fills and messed it up really badly...). It's part of being human I guess.

    Programming a brain for playing complex songs like Rush stuff is an interesting exercise. In my case, when I cannot nail something, even if I know how to play it, I give it a rest. Next time I try, it might be there... or not! It takes time to assimilate all of this stuff. When I suddenly forget how to play something or just cannot do something that I used to be able to, I usually don't fight it too much. Most of the time, I'll just listen to the song again and figure it out in my head first, not sitting at the kit. In fact, that's the way I learn songs. I visualize them in my head first, details by details, so when I sit down first to play it, I don't get too frustrated. Playing Rush songs is a very mental thing and you cannot think too much. It has to be automatic. Only preparation can help with this. This is why Neil himself practices so much before a tour.

    For the videos: Yes, YT has blocked many of my videos. It sucks. I'll send you another link for "Armor and Sword"...

    Good luck!
    Wow, cool Astrotama. Glad you found this forum. I have been following your You-Tube vids for quite a while now. Not to embarrass you or anything, but I feel that you are one of the best drummers on the Tube. And THE best as far as Rush songs go IMO. Can you do me a favor and put up your newer video's on your web-site when you get a chance? I am going to put up your web page and one of your video's for those that don't know of your brilliance yet. Hope you don't mind. But when someone is awesome doing something that a person likes, it tends to create a form of hero worship whether you want it to or not. Buy the way, have you convinced your wife to play with you on your video's yet? I'm sure that she is awesome as well. Well sorry about all the blubbering, but you truly inspire me in my drumming odyssey. http://www.noao.edu/wiyn/martin/music.html
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  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by noiseinmotion View Post
    if i read your post right, then something very similar happened to me one time. I got bored of playing the same stuff, so i put on squeeze box by the who. The first time i played it, i hit everything. Not note for note, but it was basically a perfect run through. I had so much fun that i wanted to play it again. The second time around, i was so preoccupied trying to remember what i did the first time that i kept messing up. What i'm getting at is maybe don't focus so hard on hitting everything perfectly. Have some fun with it and don't worry too much about remembering every stroke you do. The more you try to concentrate on certain intricacies, the easier it'll be to lose your place or miss a cue in the song because you aren't paying attention to the song itself.

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  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Astrotama View Post
    Hello,

    Thanks for the good words!

    The problem you mention happens to me all the time too. Even worse, it often happens in some spots in songs I have been playing for decades (e.g. I was rehearsing with my Rush tribute band last weekend and at the end of "The Spirit of Radio", I suddenly had a complete blank on one of the fills and messed it up really badly...). It's part of being human I guess.

    Programming a brain for playing complex songs like Rush stuff is an interesting exercise. In my case, when I cannot nail something, even if I know how to play it, I give it a rest. Next time I try, it might be there... or not! It takes time to assimilate all of this stuff. When I suddenly forget how to play something or just cannot do something that I used to be able to, I usually don't fight it too much. Most of the time, I'll just listen to the song again and figure it out in my head first, not sitting at the kit. In fact, that's the way I learn songs. I visualize them in my head first, details by details, so when I sit down first to play it, I don't get too frustrated. Playing Rush songs is a very mental thing and you cannot think too much. It has to be automatic. Only preparation can help with this. This is why Neil himself practices so much before a tour.

    For the videos: Yes, YT has blocked many of my videos. It sucks. I'll send you another link for "Armor and Sword"...

    Good luck!
    Astrotama, I can't tell you how excited I am to find your post to my question. You are my favorite YT drummer and one of my faves of all drummers. I keep watching the "Entre Nous" video. I love that song and you're playing is awesome! I would appreciate the link for Armor and Sword. Would love to see that video. Thank you for your advice. I do think that drumming is also lots of listening too. I'm listening to the song over and over right now. Listening more than playing.

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  20. #20

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    Hi guys,

    Thanks for the praise! The real hero here is of course Neil. As I said many times before, I'm just a bum playing the drums in his living room! I'm glad though that some people found these videos inspiring, or at least useful. I spend lots of time trying to figure out some details in these songs - it has been very useful to me too since I now play lots of them with my tribute band - and if it helps others too, that's all worth it. I really made them to pay tribute to Neil and many people have told me that it really helped them to appreciate his work even more. Cool. That's all I wanted although I'm still in shock on how much these videos have become "popular"! I really never, never expected that.

    For the website: My personal website address is still valid (given by wolvie) but it's likely going to change in the coming weeks. When I do, I'll try to put the new videos on there as well. "Armor and Sword" is already there though.

    Playing with my wife: We talk about it often but we have not played together much lately. She is more into jazz right now. She's quite a good bassist (and guitarist and singer and violist and drummer...) though and some day, we will do a video together, promised!

    Happy drumming!

  21. #21

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    @wolvie thanks for the link

    @cody thank you. I agree.

    @Astrotama, looking forward to seeing more videos. It's great that you and your wife share an interest in music and play together. That's so cool. My husband plays bass and is a huge fan of Geddy Lee and Stanley Clarke. We jam together only every now and then. We should do it more often.

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  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Astrotama View Post
    Hi guys,

    Thanks for the praise! The real hero here is of course Neil. As I said many times before, I'm just a bum playing the drums in his living room! I'm glad though that some people found these videos inspiring, or at least useful. I spend lots of time trying to figure out some details in these songs - it has been very useful to me too since I now play lots of them with my tribute band - and if it helps others too, that's all worth it. I really made them to pay tribute to Neil and many people have told me that it really helped them to appreciate his work even more. Cool. That's all I wanted although I'm still in shock on how much these videos have become "popular"! I really never, never expected that.

    For the website: My personal website address is still valid (given by wolvie) but it's likely going to change in the coming weeks. When I do, I'll try to put the new videos on there as well. "Armor and Sword" is already there though.

    Playing with my wife: We talk about it often but we have not played together much lately. She is more into jazz right now. She's quite a good bassist (and guitarist and singer and violist and drummer...) though and some day, we will do a video together, promised!

    Happy drumming!
    Thanks, Pierre. And most definitely you have a huge following. I find that your video's are very helpful as well, although a plan, or overhead view would be even more helpful, in order to be able to see what you are doing more clearly. But not sure if that would be feasible judging by your setup. Wow, your wife plays all those instruments? Multi talented to be sure. If you have kids, are they musically inclined as well? Talk to ya later.
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  23. #23

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    Default Re: Has this happened to you with practicing a song?

    [QUOTE=LL70;366704]

    I first played through the song, got through it without all the fills, rolls, cymbals. Just the simple basic (if you will) beats. Then I started adding more fills, cymbals, etc. in between to sound closer to the original song. QUOTE]


    Youre going about it the right way to me. Start out with just the basic beat and fill in where you can but sometimes you just need to walk away and come back to it.

    I realize you have already done this but just keep at it and eventually it will "click" into place. Take that fill you used to be able to do and just slow it way down and once you have it down playing slow then pick up the tempo and try again.

    Everyone of us has their own rate of speed where they learn things so just give it some time and dont get frustrated.
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  24. #24

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    Default Re: Has this happened to you with practicing a song?

    @gonefishin, thank you. I will keep trying. It has to click in eventually. Last time I played it I got one part right a couple of times. Getting there.

    I agree about playing a drum part slow to get it then speeding it up. It does help to learn it.

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