Recording a live gig

[Phil Woodney]

I've done some searching and didn't see what I was looking for, so I ask your indulgence if this subject has been previously covered or if I was using the wrong search terms.

My band has decided to start recording some of our gigs for future use as demos as well as a way to critique ourselves. We all work together in the broadcast business but are not audio technicians or engineers. We are a four piece band...guitar, bass, vocalist and drums. We have (and likely will continue) only played in small venues. Bars and small clubs, etc. Until this point, we haven't needed p.a. because the places are small. I also don't think we will need p.a. in the foreseeable future. From reading innumerable posts on DC, I think I will use two overheads, bass and snare mics. We will need some sort of mixer for the guitar and bass, as well as a couple of mics. So here are my questions:

Over head mic placement. It would be nice to avoid too much background sound from the audience. They are typically within 6 feet of the band...sometimes closer if we remember our spandex and girdles. That makes it difficult to place mic stands in front of the drum kit. Where should I place the overheads and what pattern would be most effective?

Next, are there any particular pitfalls to be avoided when recording a live gig? Obviously we won't have the luxury of total environmental control.

And lastly, in counterpoint to the previous question, can you think of any must-do's or must-have's for this situation? I ask this primarily from the drum point of view but any suggestions will be welcome.

Thanks everyone for wading through this long post.

All the best!

Phil

[mayanrelic]

My old band recorded a live show once. It went pretty well. The challenge lies in feedback from monitors. We did NOT use overhead mics. I think that would have helped significantly.

[slinglander]

We've done a lot of live videos with iphones no less and the sound is awful but using a Flip camera works wonders! I'm including a link of a video of my band playing outside this February and if you like the quality get a Flip!
http://www.screaminmelinas.com/videos.cfm

[Redeye]

My bass player/sound guy records every gig we play. He just takes an aux out jack on the mixing board straight to a digi-recorder. He can adjust the aux sends independently of the mains, so the tape mix can be different from the house mix. I often mic up even when I'm not going through the mains just to get good recordings.

I use just a Shure Beta 52 on the kick and an EV condenser overhead, but have a 57 for the snare always ready just in case. For the overhead, I put the stand behind me and position the mic as close to directly above my head as possible. This way, what I hear is what gets recorded. You could position a stereo pair the same way. I get awesome results this way.

[Phil Woodney]

Thanks for your input, guys. Shane, after reading how your bass player/sound man does it, I began wondering if it would be possible to take the same idea and swap it around 180 degrees. I mean using something like a Zoom R16 as a pa mixer/recorder and run the outputs into powered speakers or amps. Like I mentioned in my original post, we are primarily interested in recording rehearsals and our gigs. I was thinking we would have more flexibility having a multi channel recorder and if pa is necessary, using it as the mixer. Would this work, do you think?

[VIbes]

That Zoom R16 would be great to record live. Don't know what kind of set up you use but if you can use a mic on the snare and kick and 2 overheads. Overheads either in a xy or left and right above the set. Thats 4 channels. Most pa mixers these days have direct outs on each channel. Run every mic and instrument direct out from each channel into the zoom in's. Just get decent levels on each mic. Make sure you don't go in the red. Don't worry about eq. Record it flat. When you play back, mix accordingly, add efx,compression where needed. you should have a decent sound on the live recording. Performance is another thing but the recording doesn't lie.

[Redeye]

Thanks for your input, guys. Shane, after reading how your bass player/sound man does it, I began wondering if it would be possible to take the same idea and swap it around 180 degrees. I mean using something like a Zoom R16 as a pa mixer/recorder and run the outputs into powered speakers or amps. Like I mentioned in my original post, we are primarily interested in recording rehearsals and our gigs. I was thinking we would have more flexibility having a multi channel recorder and if pa is necessary, using it as the mixer. Would this work, do you think?

There are 2 ways to go with something like the R16. Ideally, it's at the end of the chain as Vibes suggests, capturing the final output. The mics/instruments go into a mixer with stereo outs to an amp (maybe a crossover) then to speakers. Better mixers will have individual outputs on each channel, either 1/4" or XLR to send to individual channels in the R16. If these aren't available, you can take a stereo pair from an aux out channel to the recorder. You can adjust the aux outs on each channel independently of the main mix, but you then can't mix down later. In the worst case, you send an RCA from the tape out directly to a device and capture the main mix. I also have a blast putting my Zoom Q3 in the audience somewhere, using its built in mics.

I've been considering using the R16 as a drum sub mixer, recording the performance and sending a stereo pair to the mixer. This would put it in the middle of the chain as Phil wants to do with his entire group. I'm not sure if there is any A/D conversion lag time that would make this hard to do. I am also weary to trust what is basically a running PC not to crash in the middle of a show and cut off my input to the main system. I think keeping software at the end of the line is wise considering what we have available. This could be a great way to record a live album at a home studio, but it would scare me at a paying show.

[Redeye]

After looking at the back of the R16, I don't think sending an unbalanced 1/4" output to a huge amp is a good idea. I'm no engineer, but all our equipment has balanced XLR and Speakon outs to the amps, which is important for some reason that someone else will need to explain...

I didn't realize they had the H3 condenser mics built in, which is really cool. You could turn those on to capture just a bit of the main stage sound and mix it with your drum mics to get a pretty good recording. You could also sing into those things to good effect. Damn, now I need to come up with $400 somehow.

[sheoth]

That Zoom R16 would be great to record live. Don't know what kind of set up you use but if you can use a mic on the snare and kick and 2 overheads. Overheads either in a xy or left and right above the set. Thats 4 channels. Most pa mixers these days have direct outs on each channel. Run every mic and instrument direct out from each channel into the zoom in's. Just get decent levels on each mic. Make sure you don't go in the red. Don't worry about eq. Record it flat. When you play back, mix accordingly, add efx,compression where needed. you should have a decent sound on the live recording. Performance is another thing but the recording doesn't lie.

this

[Phil Woodney]

Great information guys! I am not an engineer, myself, and don't even play one on tv, but the explanations simplified things enough for me to understand that I shouldn't look at an R16 as a pa mixer. I'll recommend we buy an R16 purely for recording and when we play a gig requiring pa, just take an aux out of the board.

Thanks very much!

Phil

[Phil Woodney]

That Zoom R16 would be great to record live. Don't know what kind of set up you use but if you can use a mic on the snare and kick and 2 overheads. Overheads either in a xy or left and right above the set. Thats 4 channels. Most pa mixers these days have direct outs on each channel. Run every mic and instrument direct out from each channel into the zoom in's. Just get decent levels on each mic. Make sure you don't go in the red. Don't worry about eq. Record it flat. When you play back, mix accordingly, add efx,compression where needed. you should have a decent sound on the live recording. Performance is another thing but the recording doesn't lie.

Thanks Vibe, I do plan to use the mic setup you recommend. I don't want to get wrapped up into trying to mic a six-piece set when it's not necessary.

I take your point very well about the performance versus recording issue. Hmmm...maybe recording my drumming is not such a good idea after all.