Time signatures hurting my head again

[Doc_d]

I'm curious to hear opinions on whether you think that Journey's "Open Arms" is in 3/4 or 6/8.

I've seen a lot of people refering to this song as being in a 3/4 time signature. I ended up buying the Journey play-a-long book from Alfred to get the sheet music. It also shows this song as being in 3/4.

I would have guessed it was 6/8 based on the fact in 6/8 you'd have the bass on 1 and the snare on 4. In 3/4 you'd have the bass on the 1 of the first measure and the snare on the 1 of the second measure.

[drummer]

The phrasing is in 6.

[slinglander]

He sings the phrasing as 3/4: listen to his singing emphasis on "lying beside me...."

[Aviator42009]

In these types of situations I would just go with what feels best and flows best for you.

[slinglander]

I can see the waltz now!!!
+1 with Aviator

[drummer]

He sings the phrasing as 3/4: listen to his singing emphasis on "lying beside me...."

This is in 6 guys. There are many determiners. The biggest being that you won't hear a waltz start with a snare. Bass is on 1 and snare is on 4 in this tune. Also, listen to the pause after 6 in the beginning... and in many places there are more full chords on the downbeat of "1" after 6 counts as well as the words phrasing in 6 most of the time.

Could you play it as a waltz? Sure, but it wouldn't sound right. It's a rock power ballad.

[slinglander]

Yeah, I know it's a power ballad...kidding about the waltz! I just tend to count 2 3's and play as 6. I realize it's weird to do that but that allows me to play some parts as back-to-back 3's in some fills whenever I find myself in 6/8. I'm just not comfortable with long counts.

[xweasel]

I'm pretty sure that's 6/8. But then I feel alot of 3/4s as 6/8s so don't quote me on that :P

[rickthedrummer]

I can read the most basic music. That means I know the notes for the spaces and the lines.

Somewhere in there, it turned into rocket science.

Listen to the music, it will always tell you what to do.

[GunnerUK]

It could be both 3/4 and 6/8.

It's not unusual for musicians to swop and change time sigs in songs, even when they're very similar.

Just listen to some Rush tunes.

It does sound like mostly (if not all) 6/8 though.

[Drumbledore]

It feels 6/8. If you play and count it as 1 2 3 4 5 6 (or 1+a, 2+a), then it's a 6/8 feel. 3/4 is more like 1+2+3+ (straight, as a rock feel) or 1(+)a, 2(+)a, 3(+)a if you're shuffling, waltzing or playing with a swing type of feel.

The interesting thing about playing a rock rhythm in 3/4 is the "cross-rhythm" where one or several instruments play and state the 3/4, but the drums can start with the bass drum at the beginning of one bar and the snare at the begining of the next. Classic example is Led Zeppelin's "Kashmir"....as the string instruments state "da-de-duh.....da-de-duh/da-de-duh....da-de-duh" in 3's, the drums play (generally) kick, snare, kick/snare, kick, snare. Have a listen:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfR_HWMzgyc&feature=player_detailpage"]Kashmir - Led Zeppelin - YouTube[/ame]

Not surprisingly, a number of progressive (and non-progressive) bands and musicians have been using this trick too. I've spotted this same thing on a Yes album as well as on a Steve Howe solo track, for one small example. I wouldn't be surprised if it is a classical music device though. Does anyone know if it's been around before rock music?

[trickg]

He sings the phrasing as 3/4: listen to his singing emphasis on "lying beside me...."

Disagree - the phrasing on that line is in 6, as are most of the lines in the song.

Lying beside me
1_2(3)__4____56

(Not sure if that's going to present propperly on the screen - I changed the font to try to get it to line up, but it shows where the phrasing is and why it's in 6.)

I suppose you could change it to:

Lying beside me
1_2(3)__1____23

If you do that though, you've broken the single phrase between two measures - musically it doesn't work as well.

[trickg]

I guess we might all be wrong - looking it up online I see references to the song being in 12/8, but definitely a compound time signature instead of a simple time signature.

[drummer]

6/8 and 12/8 are interchangeable and used as reference to the same song frequently. Definitely more sisters than 3/4 and 6/8 (or 12/8)

[Bish]

I find counting is way over rated.

[trickg]

6/8 and 12/8 are interchangeable and used as reference to the same song frequently. Definitely more sisters than 3/4 and 6/8 (or 12/8)

Agree - I think a lot of it comes down to personal preference of the writer and in part how the phrasing is laid out throughout the song.

[rickthedrummer]

We used to play a song that was in 138/63.

That was a tricky sucker.

[drummer]

We used to play a song that was in 138/63.

That was a tricky sucker.

No you didn't! Nice try though

At that point, I think they just refer to it as "free jazz". ha!

[JohnnySticks]

If it's in 12/8 then the verse has 4 measures, the bridge has 2 1/2 (or 2 of 12/8 and one of 6/8), and the chorus has 4.

If it's 6/8 then its 8 / 5 / 8.

Nothing to learn from that, really. I'm just sayin'.

[trickg]

If it's in 12/8 then the verse has 4 measures, the bridge has 2 1/2 (or 2 of 12/8 and one of 6/8), and the chorus has 4.

If it's 6/8 then its 8 / 5 / 8.

Nothing to learn from that, really. I'm just sayin'.

Either way would make perfect sense actually. Try looking at a Wilcox Jenkins score sometime - it's not unusual to have 3-5 time signature changes per line - his works are absolutey LOADED with time signature changes.

[Drumbledore]

No you didn't! Nice try though

At that point, I think they just refer to it as "free jazz". ha!

There is that joke we say around here in Sydney....you know why they call it 'free jazz'?

Because the Musician's Union only looks after the orchestra players when it comes to being paid properly. For everyone else it's "every man for himself"!

[JohnnySticks]

Either way would make perfect sense actually. Try looking at a Wilcox Jenkins score sometime - it's not unusual to have 3-5 time signature changes per line - his works are absolutey LOADED with time signature changes.

I play a lot of classical. Talk about changing time signatures...

[rickthedrummer]

No you didn't! Nice try though

At that point, I think they just refer to it as "free jazz". ha!

Yeah, Tom, can't get much freer than that.

[SnareTan]

I'm going to blow you guy's minds with this one. This is a 3/4 waltz that could also be done pretty easily in 6/4, and could also be written in 9/8 time (not 6/8).

Whoa whoa, What!?!?! 9/8, 6/4 are you kidding me?!?!

So follow me on this. A waltz is 3/4, with swung eighth notes. Typically, a waltz is Bass on 1, snare on 2, snare on 3. Hi-hat stomp on 2 and 3. Ride playing 1 2 3-let (like the third note of an eighth note triplet) giving that swing feel. This can either be written with two eighth notes and the indication of "swing" or "swing feel" at the beginning of the piece, or as an eighth note triplet with the second of the three notes being a rest.

Now this is a little different being they removed the 2 and 3 from the snare and hihat and moved it to count 1 of every other measure producing a very slow back beat and thus a power ballad (which is where you guys get the feel of 6). But the underlaying triplet feel is still there. So, since it had the triplet feel which means 3 notes per count, and there are 3 counts in each measure, it could be written in 9/8 since 3x3=9, though not the best idea (I'll get to that in a sec).

As for the 6/4 optional counting. This is the way you want to feel it since the snare hit would be on count 4 this way. It would still need to be swung, or written with a ton of eighth note triplets, but it is the way you naturally want to feel it and probably the easiest way to write it.

Why it's not 9/8: It could be written this way, but you would probably want to subdivide this into a complex time signature of 3+3+3. This would mean counting 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, for every measure. It would be ridiculous to count this and just like having it in 3/4, every measure would only be half of the actual part you are playing. You wouldn't really want to feel it this way.

Why it's not 6/8: If this were written in 6/8 times, you would have to count it as 1 pul let, 2 pul let, 3 pul let, 4 pul let, 5 pul let, 6 pul let. In order to account for the swung eighth notes. The problem here is that those are going to be 16th note triplets since the tempo is so slow and you are in x/8 time. This leaves little room to write faster rhythms without getting into 32nd and 64th. This becomes extremely difficult to count and comprehend for the person reading it.

So, I would feel it and count it as 6/4, but probably write it as 3/4 and just know that I start the count of every measure with 4 instead of starting back over at 1.

Confused? mind blown?

Cool!

Tan

[rickthedrummer]

With all due respects to my way more knowledgeable drumming brothers and sisters, I am so glad that I never took lessons.

I never had to sit there and contemplate all this, I just played the damn song. Doing it that way worked for ( if I count my teen years) 40-45 years, and I never had to learn rocket science.