Questions about recording

[Doc_d]

I have some inexpensive CAD mics, an inexpensive mixer, a TASCAM recorder and a TASCAM MP3 player. I use this to listen to an MP3, mix the MP3 and my drums down to stereo and record it to the TASCAM recorder. It has worked OK for me but I'd like to start learning more about recording and do a better job at getting a good final product.

I've started doing some reading and it' s a bit overwhelming. Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds to me like in a real studio the mixer is simply used to provide the musician and technician something to listen to. Even though they may mix and EQ signals through the mixer, they use the "direct outs" to record the raw tracks. Is that correct?

My assumption is that by having the individual raw unprocessed tracks you have the most control over modifying (compressing, gates, etc) and assembling those into a final mix at a later time. Assuming that's correct, that's where I'd like to get to.

Can a computer record 8 plus tracks simultaneously? Are there any dedicated digital recorders that can record 8 plus tracks simultaneously? If I have to, I'll use a computer. But I like the idea of keeping the recording process simple (using a dedicated recorder) and only bringing the computer into the picture after all the tracks have been captured.


Thanks, I appreciate any feedback!
Doc

[kickinit]

Can a computer record 8 plus tracks simultaneously? Are there any dedicated digital recorders that can record 8 plus tracks simultaneously? If I have to, I'll use a computer. But I like the idea of keeping the recording process simple (using a dedicated recorder) and only bringing the computer into the picture after all the tracks have been captured.
Doc

The Zoom R16 looks like it might fit the bill for you...

Google it...

[Doc_d]

The Zoom R16 looks like it might fit the bill for you...

Google it...

That's exactly what I was looking for! All the other multi track recorders I looked at could only record 2 tracks at a time. I was starting to think you had to premix down to 2 channels prior to recording. That didn't make a lot of sense to me because you'd have no chance to change your mix on individual drums mics or apply effects (compression, gates, etc) to individual drum mics after the fact.

Thanks!
Doc

[kickinit]

I don't own one of these, but I have had them in my peripheral vision for a while. I do have a Zoom H4N and really like it. It looks like the R16 can also be linked with an additional one for 16 tracks of simultaneous recording, as well as connect to your computer via USB as a DAW controller. If I was in the market, I would seriously consider one of these.

So be sure to post a review after you get it...

[Doc_d]

I ordered up an R24. I caught a 15% off deal at one of the big online retailers which was nice. I downloaded the manual and it looks pretty amazing for the money.

The R24 can record 8 tracks simultaneously and has 24 total tracks to work with. It has preamps and phantom power as well. My original plan was to use this in conjunction with my mixer but I'm starting to think I may not have to use my mixer at all anymore.

I have 5 toms and may want to experiment with with using two mics on the snare (batter side and snare side). I'd also like to experiment with using a dedicated condensor for the hi-hats. So I'm obviously going to have more than 8 mics eventually. My original plan was to sub mix some the mics (all the toms on 1 channel for example) to be able to record to 8 tracks. That's obviously not ideal.

Well in reading the manual you can get a second R24 or R16 and hook it to the first with a USB cable. That gives you 16 tracks of simultaneous recording. How cool is that!

Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction!

[Doc_d]

Well the R24 came in today. That thing is awesome! My mixer, MP3 player, digital recorder and metronome are all in a pile in the corner because this thing does everything.

I'm still figuring everything out. It actually does a lot more than I need it to. But so far it's pretty straight forward.

I know I could have achieved the same results using a computer, but I like this solution a lot more. No computers to boot up, generate noise, crash, etc. No latency mixing on a DAW, etc, etc. This is simple and when I'm ready I can just walk my SD card over to my computer for final mixing and editting.

It came with Cubase LE which was nice as well. I'll have to get that loaded tonight or tomorrow so I can start playing around with it.

I was impressed enough that I went ahead an ordered a second one so I can daisychain them together for 16 tracks of simulatenous recording. That'll give me some room to mic all my toms individually and mess around with making a subkick, micing the snare side, etc.

Thanks again!
Doc

[nucjd]

Good for you Doc. That seems like a great solution for you. BTW, what is the resolution rate it can record at?

[nucjd]

Never mind. Found it. looks like it max's out out at 48k.Perfect for us drummers. You are going to love the tactile interface as well. I use a command 8 with my Digi 002 and never really thought it was that big of a deal but once I used it I am hooked. Again excellent solution for what you want!

[Jemini]

I was going to recommend the Zoom as well. I have the R16 and it's more than enough for me. I really like the fact of recording to SD then just transfer over to the computer after, just drag and drop! Plus less strain on your computer. I am however learning to use it as an interface and record directly to my macbook. So for some great success but I'm still learning all the small details.

Also these things run on batteries so if you want to bring it with you they are so portable. The onboard mics are great for live events and pic up sound really good. enjooy the R24 you will love it!

[VIbes]

I think those Zoom multitrack recorders are ideal for any drummer to record.
You could record your band with them. Stand alone and interface with your computer. I wish I had one just to take to the gigs and record our jazz band.
Bring it back to the studio and mix it. I did this with a Tascam before and it turned out great. 4 mics on the drums. Snare, Kick and 2 overheads. Direct in Keyboards and Bass, Leaves a couple tracks for a horn and vocal. daisy Chaineing a couple of those you can record a whole band vocals and all.

[stuperprohero]

Doc, Congrats on the new R24. Later when you get comfortable with it, could you please post some stuff you record with your new R24?
I'd love to hear what they can do.

[Doc_d]

Here's something I whipped together last night. This is just the first part of Journey's open arms which I've been working on lately. The playing is rough. The track I'm playing to has a click but no drums.

This is my first time using cubase and doing multitrack mixing. So I have no clue what I'm doing there either. I need to work on the snare and the bass. The snare sounds really flat to me. I'm not sure if it's a microphone phase issue, a mixing issue or a tuning issue. I've been reading up a lot on recording lately and it's obvious I have a lot to learn.

Working with the R24 is a joy though. The recording process is really straight forward.

Here's the MP3... there's a long intro. The drums come in at about the 1 minute mark.
Open Arms

[nucjd]

Hey D what is your mic configuration on the kit? What is the size of the room you are recording in? where is your kit in relation to the walls of the room? what physically is in the room other than your kit? Are you normalizing your tracks and time aligning them? Thanks in advance

[stuperprohero]

Sounds like a lot of potential there.

[Doc_d]

Hey D what is your mic configuration on the kit? What is the size of the room you are recording in? where is your kit in relation to the walls of the room? what physically is in the room other than your kit? Are you normalizing your tracks and time aligning them? Thanks in advance

Nucjd - the drums are in a small spare bedroom. It's maybe 12x10. It has 8 foot ceilings and very thick carpetting. Besides some bookshelves there is no other furniture. My throne sits a couple feet in front of the back 10 foot wall. So the drums probably come to just past the midway point of the room. That means the is about 5 feet in front of them.

I did not normalize or time align the tracks. I haven't come across any information on that in my reading. I'll do some researchs. Thanks!

[nucjd]

Thanks for the info d. If I were you I would place my drum kit as best as I can about 1/3 of the space of the room rather than center. Then I would slightly turn the kit from the parallel position . My over heads I would keep away from ANY corners in the room because you are going to have hug e bass build up in the 800 to 100 hrtz range and quite a bit of phasing. I would also throw a heavy bblanket in the corners. In that size room I would I would definitely use the x- y pattern as I am hearing quite a bit of phasing secondary to the room size. I would also roll off my over heads to get rid of the mud and allow the other mics ( kicki, snare, toms) to support the lower frequencies rather than the overheads. I would then strip silence or gate ( does not matter)the toms and snare track which again would clean up the hazy sound. Finally I would normalize and time align tracks. But, thats just me

[Doc_d]

OK I did some reasearching. I definately had some microphone phase/polarity issues I as able to identify by looking very closely to the waveforms in cubase. Also it looked like the slight time differences betweeen mics would have also been causing some phase cancellation.

I fixed the phase issues and time aligned all the mics to the overheads.

I briefly looked into normalization. I'll give that a shot on my next recording after I do a little more reading up on it.

Here's the new version...

phase fixed and time aligned version

I took the first few notes from both version back to back to make it easier to compare the two. The first part is the original the second part is the new version.
comparison

Thanks again for all the help!
Doc

[nucjd]

AH, now isn't that nicer! Much cleaner and distinct. Good for you d. Researching the theory and putting it into practice. Thumbs up.

[nucjd]

Did you notice the attack from the drums had a quicker transient? It is amazing how the above little things compound on a track to create a muddy flat sound.

[Doc_d]

The difference in attack was the first thing I noticed. The snare also seems to have more tone in the sustain. I think it would have been even more obvious if backing track I had didn't have a click since the click was falling right on the attach of the snare.

Looking at the waveforms in cubase really made it apparent what was going on.

I'll probably rerecord it without the click. This time I'll look at putting something big and soft in the corners of the room. I'll also normalize the tracks.

If I have the time I may also do a before and after along with the screen shots of the waveforms to help others.

Thanks again Nucjd. It would have problably taken me forever to figure out I should shift the time on the tracks to compensate for the different amount of time it takes the sound to reach the various microphones.

[nucjd]

your welcome d. You are going about the right way and as you can see it really pays off. Keep us updated.

[Doc_d]

Here's another attempt. There's no click on the track this time. I fixed the phase, normalized and time aligned the tracks. I panned the tracks appropriately for the placement of the mics. The original song has a ton of reverb on the drums so I added a healthy dose as well.

Drums come in at about the 59 seconds mark.

Open Arms No Click.

I noticed some distortion in the final version. I didn't have much clipping in the drums only. I'm guessing when it's mixed in with the backing track I'm clipping.

When you have two signals that are -3dB are mixed together is the resulting signal -3dB or is it higher?

Thanks!
Doc

[nucjd]

Sounding even better d! You are on the right track with your thinking your tracks will compound. do you run all of your tracks to a master bus? If not, I would do that. Also you should be able to run your click track in your headphones only and it not show up on your final mix down unless it is on the song you are playing along with. Anyway, much improved from you first shot at it. Bravo.