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Thread: To click or not to click

  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    So the drummer HAS to use a 'nome to make it easier for you.

    Do like I did when I found a guitar player that was a pain in the a**.

    Replace him.

    Drummers, like guitar players, are a dime a dozen.

    Sorry, but that's ego talking right there.

    Do you think the Edge lucked out and has the perfect timekeeper... or do you think Larry uses a click live?

    U2 - the top 10 (top 5 maybe) largest live act in the world right now?!? Is that not a +1 for clicks?!? SERIOUSLY?!?
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  2. #27

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    " Hit records start at 100 and end at 100 (generalizing to make a point). "

    So does that mean that if it ended at 102, it wouldn't be a hit?

  3. #28

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    Exactly... it would be "another take".

    Seriously, tho, like an earlier post... some genres (and parts of the business) rely on this way of recording and performing.

    Why rail against it? I would advise anyone to develop the ability to do it... and then decide if that's where you want to be. Give yourself the choice.

    That's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    " Hit records start at 100 and end at 100 (generalizing to make a point). "

    So does that mean that if it ended at 102, it wouldn't be a hit?
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  4. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    A metronome only provides a fixed, rigid, relentless pulse; therefore any metronome markings on sheet music cannot accurately communicate the pulse, swing, or groove of music: The pulse is often not regular;[23] e.g. in accelerando, rallentando; or in musical expression as in phrasing (rubato, etc.).

    Some argue that a metronomic performance stands in conflict with an expressive culturally-aware performance of music, so that a metronome is in this respect a very limited tool. Even such highly rhythmical musical forms as Samba, if performed in correct cultural style, cannot be captured with the beats of a metronome.[24][25]

    A style of performance that is unfailingly regular rhythmically may be criticized as being "metronomic."

    Many notable composers, including Felix Mendelssohn, Richard Wagner, Giuseppe Verdi and Johannes Brahms, have criticised the use of the metronome.[26]


    These are just a few on the remarks I've found against the use on 'nomes.

    Never in all my years of playing, has my time keeping been called into question. Not from my bands, nor 1 studio engineer.

    I'm not saying that I have perfect time, nobody does, but you can either keep a steady beat or you can't.
    Spot on! I play to the groove, that's all that's needed.

    I learnt to play drums to jam with a friend less than two years ago and only once has he called me into question with my time. I didn't have much experience with tom fills and he told me I was playing faster when I came out of the fill. I analyzed what I was doing and reminded myself to keep the time on one limb for measure, and I haven't had a problem since.

    I must admit when I hear of 120/180 etc BPM, I don't really know how fast that is. I guess time is elastic to me, or it's not constant, or something.

    At my second gig last month, a guy from another band told me I kept the band in good time, so I don't think I start using my (unused) one any time soon.

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  5. #30

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    "Sorry, but that's ego talking right there"

    Where is the ego in that statement?

    Do you know for a fact that U-2, or any other band plays with a click, and that they wouldn't be who they are without one. That every person or band, from Dion and the Belmonts to the Stones, wouldn't be who they are without a click.

    If you hear a song you like, do you break out your 'nome to see if it's in perfect time? If you do, you are probably the only one who does, or cares.

  6. #31

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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Exactly... it would be "another take".

    Maybe, maybe not.

    Anyway, if you read my earlier post, I said if you feel you need one, use it. I've never had the need, nor was it ever suggested to me to use one.

  7. #32

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    As a worship drummer, I often tap-tempo on my Yamaha Clickstation to find the tempo, and I can say with absolute certainty that for the largest percentage of the time, click tracks are used. I can also say with absolute certainty and for the same reason that click tracks are used for the largest percentage of pop and rock music recorded these days.

    Those drummers are way better than me and get paid more to drum than I ever will - if they aren't above using a click, why should I be?

    Quoted Larry Mullen Jr. from Wiki
    During the sessions for "Sunday Bloody Sunday", producer Steve Lillywhite encouraged drummer Larry Mullen, Jr. to use a click track, but Mullen was firmly against the idea. A chance meeting with Andy Newmark (of Sly & the Family Stone) — a drummer who used a click track religiously — changed Mullen's mind.[7] Mullen used the click track to stay in time for other songs on the album.[8] Mullen said of the album in a 1983 interview, "I think the drumming has always been pretty simple, I don't think it needs to be flashy. For War I use a click track, something I haven't used before, it's a way of keeping time in my headphones. When I listened to the music in time with the click track I knew I had to bring it down to the real basics. Hopefully for the next LP it will be more complicated, I'll move on. I think of it as a musical progression for myself because I learned a lot recording this album, just about my own style and that's what I wanted to do. I think there is a definite style on War where there isn't on the previous albums."[8]
    Well, we know he used one for at least one project.

    There's an interesting article that talks about software algorithm that can detect who did and didn't use a click track - the results aren't really surprising, but it does go to show that a lot of the big names are using them, and for good reason - it makes it easier to do punch in's and multiple takes.

    For the haters, just know you are well in the minority - again, not saying you need to change anything, but it's a well respected part of music now.
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  8. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by minus 1 View Post
    I was interested to know what people thought about using a click track to practice and any reasons for and against.
    Let's go back minus original post. He was simply asking for thoughts on click tracks. It appears that this thread is becoming a discussion of whether it is right or wrong to play with the click tract. Some prefer it, and some don't. Let not make this an argument over who is right or wrong. Let everyone give their preference, and why.
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  9. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by pastor_bob View Post
    Let's go back minus original post. He was simply asking for thoughts on click tracks. It appears that this thread is becoming a discussion of whether it is right or wrong to play with the click tract. Some prefer it, and some don't. Let not make this an argument over who is right or wrong. Let everyone give their preference, and why.
    I think that some of us are illustrating quite succinctly why it's a good idea to practice with a click track, and that's because the largest part of the professional side of the industry has embraced it. Let's forget for a moment about the practice room heroes or bar band weekend warriors and let's focus instead on the songs we hear on the radio. At this point it doesn't matter if it's country, pop, rock, metal - whatever. I'd go as far as to say that 90% of it is recorded to a click. When I mentioned doing the tap-tempo thing with the worship band tunes and finding that most of that was done to a click track, I'm talking about recordings taken at live performance events too. A word I've come to use a fair amount lately is the word "ubiquitous," meaning 'existing or being everywhere.' Well, for the professional music industry, the click track is ubiquitous. This isn't my opinion - anyone who wants can check it for themselves and they'll find it to be true.

    So, bringing this back to the original poster and to paraphrase what I've posted above, basically, if you want to be a pro, then you need to do what the pro's do, and most of them use it. Whether as a tool in the woodshed, laying down tracks in the studio, or in a live performance, the pros are a click track as part of it. There is of course no right or wrong - there are still recordings being done without them, but they are in the minority these days.
    Last edited by trickg; 10-27-2011 at 09:30 PM.
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  10. #35

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    I like to be optimistic to say the least...

    at first I didn't even keep time with my left foot, much less use a metronome (I have a metronome app on my ipod lol, I didn't buy one) but after I started getting much more serious at drumming, I realized keeping time with my left foot was an essential tool to being a good good drummer, not necessarily to keep time but to develop your left foot. When I tried to do rudiments while keeping time I felt my left foot always came in at the wrong times... so for a while I have (and still in the process off) ditched the kit completely and just focused on rudiments... I find that a metronome really helped me get my rudiments consistent, but I don't see a metronome being practical or even useful outside of practice routines. Yesterday I tried doing rudiments with my feet to develop my feet independence... and once again the metronome proved to be a good tool. I have started doing simple songs while keeping time with my left foot (simple eighth beat rhythms, with fills every four or eight bars, such as Smoke on the water, 21 guns, seize the day (actually that one is complicated to keep time on because I actually need to open and close the hi hat at odd (or should I say even [on backbeat]) times and still doing the bass drum pattern... anyway it's complicated for me)

    the point of my life's story here (just a joke :P) is that in my opinion a metronome or click helps to a certain point.. but really unless I am trying to break down a complicated fill, and slow it down.... wayyyy down... or doing rudiments, I don't find the metronome useful. When I try to learn a song step by step rather than just playing any song I feel like playing when it comes up on shuffle (which I normally do) a metronome can prove useful.. once I have learned the song though, I just play to the music, or I find a guitar pro file of the song and mute the drums... it sounds similar enough...
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  11. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by pastor_bob View Post
    Let's go back minus original post. He was simply asking for thoughts on click tracks. It appears that this thread is becoming a discussion of whether it is right or wrong to play with the click tract. Some prefer it, and some don't. Let not make this an argument over who is right or wrong. Let everyone give their preference, and why.
    Pastor bob, you seem to have the patience and wisdom only a father would have. I can't comprehend the wisdom behind your simplicity. It's genius. God bless you, and have an excellent day Even though I don't actually know you, I have the utmost respect for you....
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  12. #37

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    I think that if your a drummer for hire for a band then yes play with a click track. If your trying to get some recording done, click tracks are not a bad way to go.

    The problem becomes when you rely on the click. Chasing the click is not fun and takes away from creativity. It really depends on the kind of music you play and who your with. If you play songs that start and stop and are pretty boring then no harm. I mean boring in the sense that you already know how they are going to go and their is not transitions and places for jamming.

    I've found that many folks begin to rely on the click and lose the ability to be the click track for the band. And we all know that people sometimes want to change the tempo of the song due to the crowds reaction and you can't rely on the click.

    I never use a click in a live setting, but I play stuff where a click would not make much sense.

    The answer is learn to play with one and without one.

  13. #38

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    i make part of some of my practice time playing to a metronome. i don't do it all the time but every other practice or so i devote time to playing along with one. while doing so, i will work on just basic beats or fills or i will try to work up my tempo on a certain rudiment.
    i have been playing for about 25 years + or - some and i have never used one live. i have never had to. i played for quite a few years before i was ever in a band and developed a decent sense of time, so i never saw the need. i also have never played anything that had sequenced parts (and will never do so - personal musical preference) so again, it wasn't needed.
    i have only recorded with bands i have been a member of for a while and material was always well rehearsed. i have had a producer insist on one. and i agreed, sort of. one take his way, one mine. after both takes he was ok with me working without one. what the hell, it's my money i am spending to record. if i need an extra take or so, it's on me. it has always made me work hard to play well. but that's just me being me. it's not the right path for everyone.
    bottom line, it can't hurt only help. to me the pros, it helps me get progressively faster on my hand and foot speed and i can measure it. it also helps develop my sense of time further, making the use of one live less of a necessity. the cons to me are, it can get boring - fast. it's not a flashy way to practice. it's not as fun as jamming to songs or learning something new. but it helps me so i do it.
    hope that helps.

  14. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by trickg View Post
    I think that for me it depends on who I'm playing with. Doing the church band circuit, I've found the click track to be an invaluable tool for consistency. At this one place I used to play, I had a bass player who'd really get excited and he'd push the tempo mercilessly. Even being aware of it, he could still force the tempo to move, and it was contagious - it was like a race to the end for the rest of the band. When we went to a click track, it took him some getting used to, but he tamed down quite a bit once he realized I wasn't going to budge.

    This is a typical thing in church bands - it seems like the band members think that the drummer is the only one responsible for having a good grasp on time or tempo.

    Now, if I was playing with musicians who I could trust to keep things reasonable, I have no issues with not using a click track, but I'll never be closed-minded about using one.
    I've never had a problem with that. I can't hear the bass player when we play live either, so... LOL!

  15. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by eskrimaaddiction View Post
    I think that if your a drummer for hire for a band then yes play with a click track. If your trying to get some recording done, click tracks are not a bad way to go.

    The problem becomes when you rely on the click. Chasing the click is not fun and takes away from creativity. It really depends on the kind of music you play and who your with. If you play songs that start and stop and are pretty boring then no harm. I mean boring in the sense that you already know how they are going to go and their is not transitions and places for jamming.

    I've found that many folks begin to rely on the click and lose the ability to be the click track for the band. And we all know that people sometimes want to change the tempo of the song due to the crowds reaction and you can't rely on the click.

    I never use a click in a live setting, but I play stuff where a click would not make much sense.

    The answer is learn to play with one and without one.
    Awesome post, and it makes a lot of sense - I nominate it for the post of the thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by marko138 View Post
    I've never had a problem with that. I can't hear the bass player when we play live either, so... LOL!
    He and I shared a monitor mix! Grrrr!
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  16. #41

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    I use a click track at church (mostly)...it does help at times (and does offer quite a bit of freedom for you, once you learn how to do dance around it a bit [so to speak])...it's especially helpful if other members of the band tend to push the time (we rotate different musicians, so sometimes it's needed)...however, there are some songs that just don't click out very well..for those songs, you just have to be mindful of tempo and maybe develop your own method to ensure the tempo stays where you need it to be...I use my left foot (heel) and usually tap to eigth notes with it...
    Last edited by scorch whammin; 10-28-2011 at 12:53 PM.

  17. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by trickg View Post
    Awesome post, and it makes a lot of sense - I nominate it for the post of the thread!


    He and I shared a monitor mix! Grrrr!
    Thanks alot brother.

    It's simply my theory that if you always have a click then you don't have control over tempo changes and it honestly takes away from the direction that music can take. Yes you do need to program that pulse inside your head to be able to keep even tempo when you are starting but as a drummer if you don't have that pulse and have to rely on a click then....well I don't know how to fix that cause some folks have it and some don't (like perfect pitch)

    I feel that in production and in music we are beginning to rely to much on technology, and creates stale manufactured music.

    How do you swing with a click. Instead of listing to one another and the direction that the music should naturally go, the click is the leader. To me it is like being handcuffed, and takes away one of the best things about music being live, which is the choice to do what you want when you want.

  18. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by trickg View Post
    Awesome post, and it makes a lot of sense - I nominate it for the post of the thread!


    He and I shared a monitor mix! Grrrr!
    HA, I'm lucky to play a show where I get any kind of monitor mix.

  19. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    So the drummer HAS to use a 'nome to make it easier for you.

    Do like I did when I found a guitar player that was a pain in the a**.

    Replace him.

    Drummers, like guitar players, are a dime a dozen.
    No, but in a band situation it's usually best for the whole band to work together to create an awesome sound than let the drummer be a diva which then requires extra work for other band members. This is especially an issue in styles of music where the delay is a very driving part of the band. If just playing with a metronome to help create a better and more together sound makes him a pain in the rump then well, that sucks. You can still have lots of feeling with a met. You can play ahead of it, behind it, right on top, and all of the spots in between.

    ...then again I'm one of those guys that always uses it 100% of the time (unless playing jazz/ensemble stuff) and honestly doesn't have perfect time haha. I should really work on not using it so much
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  20. #45

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    " No, but in a band situation it's usually best for the whole band to work together to create an awesome sound than let the drummer be a diva which then requires extra work for other band members."


    A band that has musicians that can work with each other to create this "awesome sound" happens when you have the right people in the first place.

    There was no extra work in any of our bands for the other musicians because I didn't use a click or 'nome. I worked with good musicians who knew what they were doing.

    When we held auditions, there were times that we didn't take the "best" guitar player, or keyboard player because they didn't fit what we were doing.

    We looked for people who could work with what we wanted to do, and I'll always take someone who really wants to play and is willing to go in the direction we wanted to go in as opposed to a musician that comes to audition with a list of songs that he expects we are going to learn because he wants to play them.

    Also, I was never a "diva" in my approach to playing, but, it was our band, and we weren't going to change what was working very well (like being booked in California 4 months down the road) for somebody who figured that it was going to become "his" band because he was good.

    Everyone had input into the songs we played. When we were home on a break, everyone would take some time off, then we would get together over beer and pizza and everyone would have a list of songs that they thought would work for us. We would hash it out, nobody got all the songs they wanted, but, they all got some of their stuff in and for the most part, (99% of the time) we had a happy group of players, and most of the disagreements were minor things.

    When you are working as much as you want, and making money, most musicians tend to be content. We didn't hire people with the "superstar" attitude.

  21. #46

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    Rick, I think you totally missed the point - he was making the point that for certain styles of music where digital delay on a guitar is used with tap-tempo, it's imperative that the drummer use a click so that the guitar player doesn't have to constantly reset their tap tempo because the digitally delayed figures aren't lining up right. Regardless of whether or not the musicians know what they are doing, unless you have perfect time (and I only know one drummer - count em, one - who does, and he's a freak of nature) then you need to use a click track in order to play that style of music. Again, if it's good enough for Larry Mullen Jr. and the Edge.... Nuff said.
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  22. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by trickg View Post
    Rick, I think you totally missed the point - he was making the point that for certain styles of music where digital delay on a guitar is used with tap-tempo, it's imperative that the drummer use a click so that the guitar player doesn't have to constantly reset their tap tempo because the digitally delayed figures aren't lining up right. Regardless of whether or not the musicians know what they are doing, unless you have perfect time (and I only know one drummer - count em, one - who does, and he's a freak of nature) then you need to use a click track in order to play that style of music. Again, if it's good enough for Larry Mullen Jr. and the Edge.... Nuff said.

    I don't think I missed the point at all.

    We were a straight ahead R&R and that played a large variety of music. From Delaney and Bonnies "Don't want to discuss it" to Mott the hoople's "Violence" to Meatloafs "Bat out of Hell" to Laura Branigans "Gloria" to .38 Specials "So caught up in you". That's 5 out of a list of hundreds that we played over the years, not counting originals.

    Our band didn't rely on trick stuff, delays and all that (I'm not knocking it, I'm just saying we didn't use it, and for most of my playing days, didn't have it) You get on stage and do what you do best, which was play the music and keep the customer satisfied.

    The fact that it's good enough for the edge (a fine guitar player, but there are better and the drummer, who doesn't impress me at all) means nothing.

    One of the reasons I got out was because I didn't care for the direction that music was going. There were few songs coming out that I felt I wanted to play.

    Remember, I'm old school. There wasn't all this trick stuff that they have today. If a guitar amp had a reverb, you were doing good. None of the bands playing around back then had anything like a click track so you didn't give that a thought. By the time things like that were available, we didn't need it. My first band was in 1960, 3 years before the friggin beatles got here. To this day, I don't understand all the hoopla over them, when the Animals and the Stones were so much better. The only given in all my (our) bands was that we did no beatles songs. We did Ringos "Photograph", Harrisons " As my guitar gently weeps" and McCartneys "Jets", but no songs by the beatles as such.

    When you get to my age, see how you feel about the current music scene at that time.

  23. #48

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    Music is sound synchronized in time. You do not have to use a click. But you should learn how to play on tempo, which is much easier to learn when you practice with one.

    So arguing that you do not need good time to make good music is bull. You need to have a good sense of time to make music. It is a key part of music. It is one of the most important parts of musical theory. I do understand that "groove" and "feel" are things that many people claim are more important than tempo. But if you can't groove in time then you are not grooving at all.
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  24. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta View Post
    Music is sound synchronized in time. You do not have to use a click. But you should learn how to play on tempo, which is much easier to learn when you practice with one.

    So arguing that you do not need good time to make good music is bull. You need to have a good sense of time to make music. It is a key part of music. It is one of the most important parts of musical theory. I do understand that "groove" and "feel" are things that many people claim are more important than tempo. But if you can't groove in time then you are not grooving at all.

    "So arguing that you do not need good time to make good music is bull"

    I would take that as a insult if I gave a damn about what you think.

    Never once did I say you don't need good time to play, but, maybe my time keeping is better than yours.

    If you knew anything about music, you would know that "groove" and "feel" are more important than keeping a beat so precise that you can't be a nano second off.

    It seems that what you are implying is that for 35 years I did everything wrong because I didn't need the crutch of a click to keep time.

    If you are holding a day job, then you didn't do what I did for all those years.
    I don't like being blunt like this, but, I've been jumped on too many times about this crap by people that are playing in some local band and think they know what's right and wrong for everybody else.

    My time was just fine or I would have been out of work 35 years ago. If you need a click, 'nome, whatever, to keep your time on the money, by all means, use one, but don't tell people you don't know anything about how they should have done things when I retired off money I made strictly from playing drums for a living.

    Do that and then you can talk to me about the rights and wrongs of playing drums.

  25. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    I don't think I missed the point at all.
    Well, the content of your post continues to say otherwise - my opinion of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    We were a straight ahead R&R and that played a large variety of music. From Delaney and Bonnies "Don't want to discuss it" to Mott the hoople's "Violence" to Meatloafs "Bat out of Hell" to Laura Branigans "Gloria" to .38 Specials "So caught up in you". That's 5 out of a list of hundreds that we played over the years, not counting originals.
    Gloria was most likely recorded to a click track - it sticks really close to 131 all the way through (just checked it) and the variance can most likely be explained due to the production techniques used in 1982. The fact that it seems to be stuck right between 131 and 132 (closer to the 131 side) says to me that when the tape was remastered digitally it was likely a hair fast or slower than what it was when it was originally put to tracks.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    The fact that it's good enough for the edge (a fine guitar player, but there are better and the drummer, who doesn't impress me at all) means nothing....
    Different strokes for different folks I suppose. U2 is generally considered to be in the top 5 or 10 most successful bands of all time and Larry Mullen Jr's style tends to be regarded as something outside of the box and worth looking into whether you are personally impressed with it or not. Your opinion of his playing is in the minority. I'm not saying you are wrong, only that maybe you've overlooked something.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    Remember, I'm old school. There wasn't all this trick stuff that they have today....
    Maybe because you are admittedly "old school" with an apparent refusal to move forward, you are stuck in a rut with old fashioned ideas where the click track is concerned. The effects, equipment and tools players use today aren't "trick stuff" to anyone who has kept up with the times - music has evolved and those things are now commonplace tools that musicians use to make their music.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    When you get to my age, see how you feel about the current music scene at that time.
    Dude, you are older than me, but I'm not exactly young - I'm 41, made my living as a full-time military musician for 10 years, and continue to play, gig and strive to evolve and stay current. Time moves forward, and things change and evolve. I can appreciate that you never used a click and maintain that you personally don't think anyone needs to use one, but anyone who has stayed current and has their finger on the pulse of today's music industry knows that the ability to play to a click track is paramount if you want to maximize your opportunities to work as a drummer. Rick, you might be awesome, but you'd never work in the band I gig with because 90+ percent of the stuff we play has a mapped click track for our 700+ song library. If you can't play to a click or refuse to play to a click, we can't use you, and we are not by far the only band who works that way.

    This is why it's important that the original poster know that it is definitely a good idea to start practicing with a click track, even if you don't personally agree. It will help them develop strong time for when they aren't using one, and it will help them to keep their options open for gigging and recording later down the road. What you have posted alongside of and in light of the rest of the posts in this thread, will never convince them otherwise.
    Your = possessive - your stuff, your dog, your car, etc
    You're = you are - a contraction.

    Learn it. Love it.

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