Triplets versus Triplet --- nomenclature hell

[cary chilton]

Hi everyone, it has a long time since being here. I miss it.

I am hobbyist stick banger, and professional guitarist, singer.

In various software I often see setting for notation for triplets and triplet feel as they say - which is swing. I see a 1/4 +1/8th note

or dotted 1/4 + 16th or 16th + dotted 1/4 for their swung variations/options.

First I'd like to clarify this. As far I am aware of, a triplet is 2 notes subdivided into 3 equal parts 1, 2, 3, 4 changes into 1 and 2, 3 and 4

Triplet feel = swing? Is that correct terminology? To me, swung notes are just that and triplets are as I typed above. Is this not so?

Is it always best to notate with triplets over dotted 16ths ( which is the same) for simplicity?

[dt344]

A triplet is three notes taking up the space 2 notes normally take up. So, where there are usually two 1/8 notes, one 1/8 note triplet takes up the same space. So, "1 and 2 and" becomes "1-trip-let 2-trip-let". In the same way, a quarter note triplet takes up the space of two quarter notes, or a sixteenth note triplet takes up the space of two sixteenth notes.

That being said, the connection of "triplet feel" and "swung" is a little more complicated. Basically, the idea is that swung eighth notes are played as eighth note triplets with the middle note removed, or you can think of it as the upbeats (or the "ands") are moved over to where the last note of an eighth note triplet would be. For most of us, seeing something "swung" written as triplets is the most common. However, in older transcriptions (particularly transcriptions from the East coast from the '40s or '50s) you would see "swung" jazz charts written as a dotted eighth note and a sixteenth note. If you played that precisely it would be a very heavily syncopated and not very smooth swing feel, and most drummers were expected to interpret that as a smoother, more triplet-feeling groove.

Now about one thing you mentioned:

Is it always best to notate with triplets over dotted 16ths ( which is the same) for simplicity?

I don't think I agree with you here: dotted 16ths are the same as QUARTER note triplets, not the same as EIGHTH note triplets, and most swing is based on the eighth note triplet because the pulse is still on the quarter note and not the half note.

So, I would say that eighth note triplet feel = swing, and that writing is as a dotted eighth and sixteenth is outdated.

[drummer]

Very well explained.

To even further simplify, always think of the triplet when you think of swing. Let this be your focal point. Everything else are variations and interpretations.

[trickg]

The triplet swing feel is really more of a starting point than anything else. When I was at the Armed Forces School of music they really emphasized the triplet swing feel as being the equivalent to the first two being tied and with the emphasis on the 3rd part of the beat. True "swing" however depends upon the song and the context at the moment - it's not always an actual triplet - sometimes it's a bit more straight and closer to 8ths than the triplet feel, and sometimes it's closer to the dotted 8th/16th feel. Then again I should probably qualify this by saying that I've done very little swing drumming - most of the big band swing experience I have is on trumpet.

[slinglander]

I think blues shuffles use the same swing feel to the triplets as does jazz. I agree with dt about the notation, too.

[cary chilton]

Hey guys, this is a complex topic! I am scoring/tabbing some music right now and I have been mulling over and trying to gather all the questions I am running into, so here it goes:


Simple triplets are 3 beats in the space of two, right? 1 triplet 2 triplet etc Is These effectively subdivided beats, right?
2 quarter triplets is 6x 8th's as I understand it. What the heck would the beat value of a dotted quarter note triplet be?

Regarding swing, as per what I read, it is a triplet with the middle note removed and emphasis on the first or last beat -dotted first beat or dotted second. Is this correct? Is this why swung notes have a feeling of the tempo rushing forward, because of the implied middle beat that is removed?

Is it possible to swing triplet pattern -that is a true, triplet thus 3 notes/beats?
For instance, Eddie Van Halen's Eruption, during the 16th triplets tremelo picking in the end of the second section doesn't always seem to be straight triplets, seems to swing a bit, as there is a undeniable swing in many parts of the first and especially the beginning of the second section.


I always wondered about the Alex Van Halen's choice on kik. For instance, on a classic boogie hard swing, like Hot For Teacher
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_lio51Z1qc
or I'm The One
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzkXGIRaxcI

But songs like Jump, is this beat swung or not?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlq0lYB3iSM
sounds like nearly straight eights, that is why I asked if it is possible to swing a 3 note/beat triplet.

Jump we hear the kik/kik /snare etc with a rest after the snare creating swing? Alex seems like this type of beat, used it a lot... maybe to inspire or imply a swing of a straight rock rhythm, but open the doors for swing riffs/solo/rhythm for Ed?


Also, tuplets in general are tricky. Your typical 3:2 triplet, but there's 4:3 5:3, 6:4 9:8 but I haven't seen 5:4 or 6:5 or others -are these too difficult to score?

Let's get specific. a quick riff I am reading off a score has 236bpm, the riff 16th note 9:8 tuplets for two measures. 18 notes, do these notes become dotted 32nd notes? How do you measure it? I need to understand this for scoring, since the editor shows a bar red when the bar's total beat value is off. Pain in the ***.

This is also more about scoring & beat value choices- same song as above, 8th note triplets the riff repeats 7X for 3 bars. While the official score is 8th note triplets, the actually riff ( guitar) is 5 note riff. Would it not be more accurate to score as a 5 note group? How would this be done? 5:4? or 5:3 dotted 16th?


Thanks guys!

Calculating bar beat values, with all the rests, dotted double dotted , tuplets, swing etc is VERY difficult!

[thorn]

Don't overthink it.

A basic standard triplet is simply 3 notes in the space of one; in terms of transcription, there's not delay, emphasis, or retard + rushed note. It's the same thing as playing 8th notes in 3/4 time (at a faster tempo).

(singing for one beat) Ah Ah Ah

Swing (or even polka, I'd think) is merely when you take those 3 notes and change the duration of one of them... hit the first, sort of dot it, and then finish the triplet.

(singing for one beat) Ahhh ah ah

Don't know if that helps or not... just trying to make it seem less "musical theory" and more "feel". But yes, they are 2 different things.

thorn