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Thread: Odd timing signatures.

  1. #1

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    Default Odd timing signatures.

    I've been listening to a lot of music such as Animals As Leaders, Periphery and Meshuggah these days, and if you're familiar with any of them you'll know there are some intense timing signatures among there. How do you go about familiarizing yourself with odd timing signatures, if any of you focus on that kind of thing? Is it just a matter of repetition, or are there any exercises (other than the obvious counting) that anyone could recommend to me? I'm working on (Somewhat) simpler ones for now, 5/4 and 7/8.

    There was a song a guitar player friend of mine shown me the other day, the timing signature went from 15/16 to 17/16 every 8 bars. I wish I remember what it was called...

  2. #2

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    There are different approaches. Repetition is certainly the first thing I would do. Think about how many hours in your life you've been playing 4/4. Now compare that to how many hours you've played 7/8. Kinda puts it in perspective doesn't it?

    My advice to students is to take them one at a time and get comfortable with subdivision possibilities etc. with just one first before moving on. This makes it a little less scary or intimidating. You'll find that you reach a certain comfort level and it will build your confidence.

    Good luck and remember, nothing is hard once you've learned it!

  3. #3

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    Surround yourself with these time signatures. If you're learning to play 7/8, listen to A LOT of music in 7/8.

    Also, I don't count each individual beat in a bar of x/8. I count like I would in 4/4, 3/4, 5/4 or whatever, but I cut off the last 8th note. I'll count 7/8 like "one, two, three, fo-one, two, three, fo-one", if that makes sense.
    - Zack

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by almostmatt1 View Post
    Meshuggah
    Also, according to Tomas Haake, Meshuggah's music is in 4/4.
    - Zack

  5. #5

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    i love playing odd time when the rest of the band can only play 4x4 ..im magic

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by itchie View Post
    i love playing odd time when the rest of the band can only play 4x4 ..im magic
    I remember jamming with a bass player, who could only keep time by counting out loud, a complete beginner. We were playing in 6/8, but I counted as loudly as I could in groups of 7 to mess with him.

  7. #7

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    The hardest time I ever played was 31/1/2 over 13 3/4.

    I counted in fractions. Must make me Houdini.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by itchie View Post
    i love playing odd time when the rest of the band can only play 4x4 ..im magic
    I tried that in church once years ago… Got some weird looks.. never did that again lol
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  9. #9

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    Good way to learn 5/4: listen to Take Five a million times. Such a catchy number that song..
    Pdp LXE | Pearl ELX Export

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  10. #10

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    Best way to learn 5/4 :

    Learn to play DANCING MADLY BACKWARDS by Captain Beyond.



    Best way to learn 7/8 :

    Learn to play MONEY by Pink Floyd.



    Once you get these two down the others will come much easier.
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  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    The hardest time I ever played was 31/1/2 over 13 3/4.
    No you didn't.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by xweasel View Post
    Also, according to Tomas Haake, Meshuggah's music is in 4/4.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by xweasel View Post
    Also, according to Tomas Haake, Meshuggah's music is in 4/4.
    Correct. Meshuggah employs heavy use of polymeters over a 4/4 base. Typically you hear Haake ride on a china accenting the 4/4 patterns. Give it a listen.

    Odd time signatures (I'm guessing you mean actually odd as in 3,5,7,9,11,etc) isn't that hard. You realize after a while that you're playing combinations of different time signatures which make up the odd time. I always break things down into smaller pieces. For example, I had a band that had a song with a chorus in 11/8. I counted it as a bar of 6/8 and a bar of 5/8. You could break it down further, that bar of 5/8 was really a bar of 3/8 and a 2/8 fill at the end for part of the chorus, and a full 5 count fill in other sections.

    I also subscribe to the Gavin Harrison odd-time style. His 5 and 7s are often played with accents on 1 and 3, and kick drum on 2, 4, and 5 in the case of a 5 beat bar; or 1, 3, and 5 accents on snare and kick drum on 2, 4, 6, and 7 in the case of a 7 beat bar.

    Do some watching on youtube of examples, and you'll start to get a feel for it.

    The only two constants I have are DW and Zildjian.

  14. #14

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    The only counting I've ever done was 4 clicks of my sticks to start the song. You could play a song for me in an odd time signature and I'd have no idea what the time signature is. However once I listen to the song, I can play it. That's how I've always done it. I count nothing, I just hear it and play it.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    The hardest time I ever played was 31/1/2 over 13 3/4.

    I counted in fractions. Must make me Houdini.
    ............must have taken lessons with Jens Hanneman. Sorry I missed you the other night, will give you a yell tonight.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by drummer View Post
    No you didn't.

    True, but I have played some off the wall times in jams in NYC.

  17. #17

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    Having the affinity to play odd meters is a great thing to have. My first exposure to it was playing (roughly) "Take 5" by the Dave Brubeck Quartet, with the great Joe Morello on drums. Then later on, when I dived heavily into progressive rock music, listened to a lot of Yes, Rush, Genesis, King Crimson, ELP.....the classic earlier stuff, before I kept listening to more and more (way to many to list, but I have a taste for some pretty obscure groups). And Led Zeppelin should even be part of your listening routine, Bonham was pretty good locking in with John Paul Jones. Another source of inspiration for odd meters for me, which has been pretty much a treasure trove, has been ethnic music, particularly Greek, Balkan, Armenian, Eastern European and Indian music. I try when I can to go and see drummers that do this.....for instance, a friend of mine Steve plays at Greek wedding receptions in one band situation, and heavy metal in others! I'm pretty okay with 3/4 (waltzes for but one example), 5/4, 7/8 and 7/4.....9/8 is a bit tricky, especially if you lose your count, it's a lot harder to recover your count than in 7/8, trust me!

    As it might have been mentioned elsewhere before, the best thing to do when you have an odd time signature, is to break it down into smaller units, so if you see 5/4, think of it as 2/4 & 3/4. Or 3/4 and 2/4. Or a 7/4 can be 3/4 & 4/4. Or even 3/4, 2/4 & 2/4, if you take it out further. When you have more involved time signatures over, say x/8 (don't even get involved with stuff that's x/16 until you're confident enough with previous mentioned signatures).....if you have 11/8, think of 6/8 & 5/8. Then you can break that down even further, say 3/8, 3/8, 2/8 & 3/8. Or a 4/4 and a 3/8. And that's just for starters.

    Now here's another thing. Don't just work out rhythms and grooves in odd time. Figure out fills in odd times as well. Plus combinations. In fact, over time I've been keeping a folder of manuscript paper (jeez I'm old-school) that I keep writing in variations of odd meter rhythms and fills that I've been working out over these years. Bear in mind I don't do this every day (as I've a ton of things I have to keep working at) but they're been added to bit by bit. Two pages revolve around 5/4, three around 7/4, five or more around 9/8 & 9/4.....you get the idea. Some are hard for the sake of being hard (to keep me on my toes), but others come about because I'll think or hear a musical phrase and figure out some rhythm to accompany it. Having a few musician friends that get deep into it doesn't hurt either....in fact well over a decade or so back I played in a band where we played probably two tunes that were in straight 4/4 and everything else was....well, odd....but not as the audience would know it, lol. But I'm like that....sometimes I'd be thinking of odd exercises just so that I can work on a certain sticking that will keep me occupied. For instance:

    R L R L L, R L R L L, R L R L L....followed by two regular paradiddles R L R R, L R L L. that will give me:

    R L R L L, R L R L L, R L R L L, R L R R, L R L L.

    Now try it between two toms, or right hand on ride, left hand on snare. Or substitute your right foot for your right hand, whilst you play 1/8th notes with your right hand. And then, when you want to 'up the ante'.....try it as 1/16th notes! What I would do is play the sticking as you see as above without worrying too much to say "1e+a" etc. Then, when the sticking feels comfortable on a practice pad, count the fives as "1 2, 1 2 3" whilst the two paradiddles you'd call perhaps "1e+a, 2e+a". You can even put a bass drum on all the '1's. Frustrating as all buggery, but a heap of fun when you move it around the kit as a drum fill!
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  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbledore View Post
    Another source of inspiration for odd meters for me, which has been pretty much a treasure trove, has been ethnic music
    Case in point

    - Zack

  19. #19

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    ^ that was absolutely brill! Straight to my Youtube faves now!

    Don't forget:



    Always a good one for odd signatures. Check this out.

    "...it's the Paradigm Of The Cosmos!" Stewart Copeland on Youtube

    668: The Number Of The Guy Next Door To The Beast.

    "A random act of kindness; it keeps my heart in shape!" - Late8

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbledore View Post
    ^ that was absolutely brill! Straight to my Youtube faves now!
    Here's the drummer of that band tearing it up. Neat drum solo near the end, too



    Another random clip

    - Zack

  21. #21

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    I find that repetition works the best for me. I hear it, and I play it. Counting doesn't work for me. I break up the song in however many segments I feel that I need and do the parts individually over and over. When I feel I have one part down, I go to the next. Eventually I will have all the parts memorized so I can put it all together and play it through. Odd time signature Prog is the hardest style to master I feel.
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  22. #22

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    My advice, if you are playing something like 7/8 for example, don't count 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, count like... 1 2 3 4 1 2 3, or 1 2 3 1 2 3 4... or any combination like that...1 2 1 2 1 2 3.

    I saw a video from Chris Coleman where he was playing something like... 23/16? I don't remember, but he was advising that you count
    1->8
    1->8
    1->7
    Too Much Stuff.

  23. #23

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    I hardly ever count things out as well. Not sure if this has been said yet, but alot of times it's easier to feel the phrasing of the odd time than to count it out. If the vocals or bass or other instruments provide a good lead to the phrasing, follow along, learn that to help figure out the mathematical patterns and flow going on in the song.

  24. #24

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    No need to count for me since the lead guitarist gives me clear instructions in the middle of the songs. And his solos are always perfect on tempo.

  25. #25

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    People always seem to think there's some secret handshake involved in playing anything not in 4/4. There really isn't. If it's in 4, you count to 4. If it's in 11, you count to eleven. If it's in 3, you count to 3, etc etc etc. That's it.

    Getting the feel of odd times when you're not used to playing them can be a little wonky if you're used to 4/4 but if you listen you should pick it up pretty quick. "Listen to the phrasing" is good advice, but if you're not listening to it in 4/4 then you're not playing that right either.

    Don't over think it.

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