16th notes at 200BPM+

[Poddogg]

Hello Drum Chat,

This is my first post so allow me to introduce myself a little first, I'm 22, from York, England and have been drumming on and off for a few years now.

My band plays songs that are usually 200-230BPM, and so far my fills mostly consist of 8th notes, I would like to increase this to 16th notes for a much faster pop-punky feel.

I cannot reach that speed with single downstrokes, and I'm beginning to think I missed out a fundamental part of learning. Should I be practicing a different technique (such as the push-pull) to reach this speed or just keep practicing my single downstrokes to reach this speed? If so how would I go about doing this?

I have feel I have hit a brick wall in my drumming progress and until I can play faster fills at this speed, I wont feel competent enough to start recording tracks at the best of my abilities, the style of music requires more than just 8th note fills but I don't know how to get to the next level.

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated!

[almostmatt1]

G'day mate, welcome to the forum.

Sounds like what you need to do is go back to the basic rudiments, there's no substitute for them when it comes to developing technique, control and speed. Different rudiments and exercises work differently for different people, but the basic single stroke roll, double stroke roll and parradiddle are generally regarded as being the fundamentals.

As far as technique goes, I don't believe there's any technique you "should" practice, so long as is feels comfortable and fluid. Whatever you do at the minute, I'd continue to work on, if that is what feels comfortable. High speeds can be achieved with a multitude of techniques; all wrist, finger motion, push pull, they can all achiever high speeds with enough work.

Pretty much the most important thing is you understand and resign yourself to the fact that there's no substitute for practice. If you want your single stroke rolls to be faster, work on single stroke rolls. Sounds simple, hey? That's all there is to it.

Good luck and keep us updated on your progress.

[slinglander]

I would try more doubles- they can easily double your speed-hands and foot work(assuming double pedals here.)

[Poddogg]

G'day mate, welcome to the forum.

Sounds like what you need to do is go back to the basic rudiments, there's no substitute for them when it comes to developing technique, control and speed. Different rudiments and exercises work differently for different people, but the basic single stroke roll, double stroke roll and parradiddle are generally regarded as being the fundamentals.

As far as technique goes, I don't believe there's any technique you "should" practice, so long as is feels comfortable and fluid. Whatever you do at the minute, I'd continue to work on, if that is what feels comfortable. High speeds can be achieved with a multitude of techniques; all wrist, finger motion, push pull, they can all achiever high speeds with enough work.

Pretty much the most important thing is you understand and resign yourself to the fact that there's no substitute for practice. If you want your single stroke rolls to be faster, work on single stroke rolls. Sounds simple, hey? That's all there is to it.

Good luck and keep us updated on your progress.

Thank you for your reply Almostmatt

I am no stranger to practice, nor do I believe in magic youtube solutions, I just need to know that I am practicing the right thing and that 16th notes are obtainable at this speed using single downstrokes. (I assume they are but sometimes it feels impossible)

I agree with you that I need to go back to basics in terms of rudiments, my double stroke and paradiddles are slower than my single strokes, which is why I never used to practice them.

If you were to do a 16th note fill at 200-230bpm what would you use? just downstrokes using fingers or would you use a push pull method? Or would you
use double strokes with either downstrokes or push/pull or a combination of them all?

I have no trouble putting in the time and effort to get this right I just need to know which direction to head in

Also, in the mean time what else do you suppose I work on? my fills seem a little slow and empty for the style of music, do I just have to stick to 8th notes until I can play the 16ths?

I would try more doubles- they can easily double your speed-hands and foot work(assuming double pedals here.)

Double bass is sometimes involved, but mostly only in bursts and flams, although I have banned myself from using it until I am comfortable with my single pedal technique. No use building up on sloppy foundations right?

[almostmatt1]

Thank you for your reply Almostmatt

I am no stranger to practice, nor do I believe in magic youtube solutions, I just need to know that I am practicing the right thing and that 16th notes are obtainable at this speed using single downstrokes. (I assume they are but sometimes it feels impossible)

I agree with you that I need to go back to basics in terms of rudiments, my double stroke and paradiddles are slower than my single strokes, which is why I never used to practice them.

If you were to do a 16th note fill at 200-230bpm what would you use? just downstrokes using fingers or would you use a push pull method? Or would you
use double strokes with either downstrokes or push/pull or a combination of them all?

I have no trouble putting in the time and effort to get this right I just need to know which direction to head in

Also, in the mean time what else do you suppose I work on? my fills seem a little slow and empty for the style of music, do I just have to stick to 8th notes until I can play the 16ths?

I think the world record speed is over 1200 single strokes in a minute. That'd be around... 16th at 300bpm, I believe. Or something. Math isn't my forte. Anyway, not that you need to play that fast or anything for what you're aiming for, but it's certainly possible.

What I'd use? My hands are actually very uneven. My right hand these days uses nearly entirely fingers, push-pull only when playing skank or blast beats, and my left is mostly wrist. My right needs to be a lot more nimble and I use my left for snare blasting a lot, and I've gotten used to appropriate my technique to get a lot of solid power out of it. So, basically, again I can't really tell you what I'd recommend haha, I'd recommend whatever you can get to work for YOU.

I'd try working on some polyrhythms and syncopation. You may not use much of it, but it can give you some fantastic ideas when it comes to original fills. As far as rudiments? Can't go past the good old single stroke IMO.

[scottyp]

pretty much all the music i play is between 200-240... i play in a skate punk and death metal band.... i do doubles on my feet but singles on the hands.. i'll give you a few tips.

1. practice to a click. start at 150 then 155,160,165 all the way until its JUST above where you can play it very tight. do it for as long as you can. speed comes with practice. there really is no substitute. for me to do blastbeats 235 is my max right now.. pushing that last 5bpm is hard.. but I'm getting closer with practice

2. as far as your setup, make sure your not reaching. try tuning your drums a bit higher for rebound. punk/metal doesn't fall under the usual (big open sound) that alot of people on these fourms go for.. rebound is your friend. don't have crazy tom angles and make sure your setup is all natural feeling. cymbals too.

3. don't hulk smash your drums. watch vids on youtube of fast players. specifically metal guys. they arn't hitting the drums super hard. once the speed is there you can start working on hitting a bit harder. but at 220+ Im not putting my sticks threw the skins on a fill.

4. technique technique technique. find what works for YOU. theres a million ways to hit a drum. do whats comfortable. i use alot of wrist. but on the super fast stuff i start adding in alot more fingers.

5. practice. you'll get there.. but if your not playing every day. its gonna take longer. speed and muscle memory go hand in hand

[rickthedrummer]

Practice rolls on a pillow. Take a pillow, fold it and hold it between your knees to create a little tension and give you a little bounce.

It's what I used as a young drummer, and , on occasion, I still use it.

[MadAboutDrums]

I'd rather play 200 notes at 16 bpm, get that right and then build on speed.

[slinglander]

I think I'm a little confused about this problem, Poddogg:
if your feet can go 200 BPM, are we assuming 1/4 notes here? So your hands are slower than your feet? Or does the 200 BPM refer to 1/8ths or 1/16ths?
If a drummer has the speed record for 1200 BPM with his feet, all 1/4 notes, then his hands playing a roll of 1/16ths would be 4 X 1200=4800 BPM? I can't see that happening...

[scottyp]

... at 200bpm.. 16th notes.. it would be 800 hits on the feet.

in 4/4 time


4 beats a measure.... 16 kick drums in a measure.

[Markadiddle]

I think I'm a little confused about this problem, Poddogg:
if your feet can go 200 BPM, are we assuming 1/4 notes here? So your hands are slower than your feet? Or does the 200 BPM refer to 1/8ths or 1/16ths?
If a drummer has the speed record for 1200 BPM with his feet, all 1/4 notes, then his hands playing a roll of 1/16ths would be 4 X 1200=4800 BPM? I can't see that happening...

... at 200bpm.. 16th notes.. it would be 800 hits on the feet.

in 4/4 time


4 beats a measure.... 16 kick drums in a measure.

Like I told another member at one time about playing that fast... if you can do that, better get a fire extinguisher because your heads will be on fire from the friction.

[scottyp]

i constantly play at that speed... what blows me away is the guys hitting 250+

I guess to people who don't play types of music that call for it it seems a bit crazy. but pretty much all deathmetal is a good ammount of machine gun double kick.

200-220 is pretty standard death metal speeds.. my grind band used to push it 220-230.... that's when i started working on doubles as they were looking at 235ish.

[slinglander]

Like I told another member at one time about playing that fast... if you can do that, better get a fire extinguisher because your heads will be on fire from the friction.

Heads? how about your hands?

But kick 16ths at 200 still means hand 32nds at 400; hand 8ths at 100, 1/4s at 50 BPM (unless you've changed the notation method on me)?

[Aviator42009]

Heads? how about your hands?

But kick 16ths at 200 still means hand 32nds at 400; hand 8ths at 100, 1/4s at 50 BPM (unless you've changed the notation method on me)?

You've got it backwards:

If I'm playing 16th notes at 200BPM, I'm playing 4 notes per every beat. If there's 200 beats in a minute, then I'm technically playing 800 quarter notes (which equal one beat) in a minute. If I play that exact same speed/note spacing, I'd be playing 32nd notes at 100 BPM, and 8th notes at 400 bpm.

On the subject of the forum, I'm having trouble getting my singles past 180 consistently, so you guys have nothing to worry about haha.

[scottyp]

You've got it backwards:

If I'm playing 16th notes at 200BPM, I'm playing 4 notes per every beat. If there's 200 beats in a minute, then I'm technically playing 800 quarter notes (which equal one beat) in a minute. If I play that exact same speed/note spacing, I'd be playing 32nd notes at 100 BPM, and 8th notes at 400 bpm.

On the subject of the forum, I'm having trouble getting my singles past 180 consistently, so you guys have nothing to worry about haha.

This is correct

16th at 200bm... 4 kick drums (16th notes) for every blip of the metronome

32nd at 100bpm..

64th 50bpm

8th at 400bpm which would be to dumbest way to measure time ever. haha

[almostmatt1]

i constantly play at that speed... what blows me away is the guys hitting 250+

Same here man. And people breaking 300+ these days? Jeez! Where's it going to be at 20 years time...

Cool to see another extreme metal drummer on the forum. There's not many of us around here.

[slinglander]

You're right! What was I thinking?
Double the number of notes, not the time, is what I didn't do.

[scottyp]

Same here man. And people breaking 300+ these days? Jeez! Where's it going to be at 20 years time...

Cool to see another extreme metal drummer on the forum. There's not many of us around here.

I've gathered that from a few of the fourms I've been on.

Just had me a great jam, tuned my drums perfect before. triggers were working great. 240bpm 16th notes on the kick was my max today (double strokes) but still pretty happy with it.

music cant much faster...... I love bands like origin/fleshgod/braindrill and whatnot..... but any faster they are going to have to play half time or its not musical AT ALL... im all for insane speed and technique... but over 300 is TOO fast. lol

[almostmatt1]

music cant much faster...... I love bands like origin/fleshgod/braindrill and whatnot..... but any faster they are going to have to play half time or its not musical AT ALL... im all for insane speed and technique... but over 300 is TOO fast. lol

For sure, man. More than half the time it's speed for the sake of speed as it is. Speed is cool and all, but speed, music, and using speed musically are different things, which is often overlooked.

Welcome to the forum by the way. You'll like it here, it's a cool place and the mods do a great job.

[SpatzST]

I thought you should all know that I can play quarter notes at 1000BPM, but only for 1 beat.

[Russ]

Any speed you play, make sure you're playing in time. Ultra fast sections tend to make a lot of players miss notes, but they keep on doing it, repeating bad habits and technique. Playing 300bpm but missing half the song will get you fired from any gig, so only play the max speed you can handle while still locking to the beat. Sometimes it's better to slow down and solidify your chops. If I owned a venue and was looking for a band to play, i'd pick the one whose drummer was a wizard at 75bpm vs the 300bpm speed demon who can't control his sticks most of the time. It just doesn't sound as good.

[scottyp]

Thats a very true comment... anything under 235 I will play live.... the 240 stuff i'm practicing getting it tight. although i don't feel a need to break past that point really. Id rather start playing some slower stuff than going any faster

[JohnnySticks]

pretty much all the music i play is between 200-240... i play in a skate punk and death metal band.... i do doubles on my feet but singles on the hands.. i'll give you a few tips.

1. practice to a click. start at 150 then 155,160,165 all the way until its JUST above where you can play it very tight. do it for as long as you can. speed comes with practice. there really is no substitute. for me to do blastbeats 235 is my max right now.. pushing that last 5bpm is hard.. but I'm getting closer with practice

2. as far as your setup, make sure your not reaching. try tuning your drums a bit higher for rebound. punk/metal doesn't fall under the usual (big open sound) that alot of people on these fourms go for.. rebound is your friend. don't have crazy tom angles and make sure your setup is all natural feeling. cymbals too.

3. don't hulk smash your drums. watch vids on youtube of fast players. specifically metal guys. they arn't hitting the drums super hard. once the speed is there you can start working on hitting a bit harder. but at 220+ Im not putting my sticks threw the skins on a fill.

4. technique technique technique. find what works for YOU. theres a million ways to hit a drum. do whats comfortable. i use alot of wrist. but on the super fast stuff i start adding in alot more fingers.

5. practice. you'll get there.. but if your not playing every day. its gonna take longer. speed and muscle memory go hand in hand

This seems like good, thoughtful advice to me.