Play too loud??

[agent_orange]

Understanding dynamics is a art by itself. There are times when you can bash away, and there are times where you have to "pull the plug".

I've played at full volume, and also played where the sticks were 2-3" above drums and cymbals. Stick control is all important, and it comes with a combination of practice and experience.

Looking back, I learned more about dynamics playin jazz, which calls for more stick control because the volume level may change several times in 1 song.

I've been thinking of getting a Jazz teacher for that reason, even before this thing with the new band. Do you think that'd help?

[Dodeska]

Just out of interest, what sort of music are you playing?
If it's rock & they say you're too loud then you must be really loud!
I think the room must have something to do with it. Where we practice the rooms are damped with foam, which makes a heck of a difference in the volume stakes. To me, I sound loud (we play 70/80 Punk), but when I spoke to the others they said it was fine, and if anything I was too quiet.

[Northern Redneck]

Cheers Dude, I think I've ascertained that.
I was really looking at getting some thoughts on getting the volume down.

Every post except your last response to Rick you sounded like you wanted to proove these guys wrong. You want to be quieter, play softer or dampen the kit.

[wolvie56]

Sounds as if these guys are used to someone being able to turn their drums up or down at will, which can be accomplished with an e-kit very easily. Not so much with an acoustic, right? In fact, almost not at all. Playing with "dynamics" doesn't actually lower volume by itself. It just changes accents at differing times utilizing ghost notes, sizzling the hi hats, crescendo & decrescendo, which are played with more finesse, therefore with less force usually, thereby reducing volume a bit. But not much. Trying to change your style in mid stream is problematic at best. They are just going to have to deal with it. Get them some earplugs. Have them play louder. Or you can leave, or be told to leave. In which case they're going to find the same results with the next drummer they hire that plays an acoustic kit. Your only other option is to utilize a shield. Or have everyone pitch in and buy an e-kit for the band. Then the problem for them won't come up anymore. Good luck.

[rickthedrummer]

I've been thinking of getting a Jazz teacher for that reason, even before this thing with the new band. Do you think that'd help?

Maybe I'm naive, but I've never heard off a "jazz teacher". Drum teachers are all over the place, but, someone who bills themselves as a "jazz teacher" is probably trying to separate themselves from the pack.

You don't "teach" jazz. It's a feel type of music.

[kay-gee]

Maybe I'm naive, but I've never heard off a "jazz teacher". Drum teachers are all over the place, but, someone who bills themselves as a "jazz teacher" is probably trying to separate themselves from the pack.

You don't "teach" jazz. It's a feel type of music.

Hmm

There are schools that teach jazz. Like universities and such. Not as common for say...country or rock. I would be shocked if some of the legendary sax and pianists and so on, had no musical training in jazz.

all the best...

[kay-gee]

I think for starters, you have to look around at what the band is using. If they're signing through 80 watt PA systems and no monitors and 40 watt guitar amps, or worse yet, acoustical instruments, and you are lifting your hands above your head to hit the drums, then yeah, you're probably too loud. It is likely in rehearsals to use a trimmed down version of the sound set up for live.

I find I can get a very meaty tone from the drums with only raising the sticks a few inches. It has to do with the amount of force I apply in that distance. Think like a drag racer. Goes very fast but in only a short distance.

all the best...

[rickthedrummer]

Hmm

There are schools that teach jazz. Like universities and such. Not as common for say...country or rock. I would be shocked if some of the legendary sax and pianists and so on, had no musical training in jazz.

all the best...

Most didn't.

I was in a jazz improvsation band in college. The man who ran it was a local guy, known in NYC jazz circles (he was actually the 1 who got me started going to NYC for jam sessions),. He would bring in records of various jazz groups and have you listen to how they played things. We had to take it from that point on.

You can put someone in a flight simulator and show them how to fly a 767, the checkdowns, air speed, how to control the rudders, elevators, flaps et al, but take them and put them in a 767 for real and they'll crash before they ever get off the ground.

My point being that they might try to give you direction, but doing it is a totally different ball game. Coltrane, Dizzy, Hubbard, Morello, Bird, Rich, etc, learned "on the job", not sitting in a class.

[Kazaamski]

every post except your last response to rick you sounded like you wanted to proove these guys wrong. You want to be quieter, play softer or dampen the kit.

+1

[agent_orange]

With regards a 'jazz teacher',i meant someone that teaches jazz

[agent_orange]

Just out of interest, what sort of music are you playing?
If it's rock & they say you're too loud then you must be really loud!
I think the room must have something to do with it. Where we practice the rooms are damped with foam, which makes a heck of a difference in the volume stakes. To me, I sound loud (we play 70/80 Punk), but when I spoke to the others they said it was fine, and if anything I was too quiet.

I have played in Rock bands before, but this is kind of fusion of blues/fusion/funk.

[agent_orange]

Most didn't.

I was in a jazz improvsation band in college. The man who ran it was a local guy, know in NYC jazz circles (he was actually the 1 who got me started going to NYC for jam sessions),. He would bring in records of various jazz groups and have you listen to how they played things. We had to take it from that point on.

You can put someone in a flight simulator and show them how to fly a 767, the checkdowns, air speed, how to control the rudders, elevators, flaps et al, but take them and put them in a 767 for real and they'll crash before they ever get off the ground.

My point being that they might try to give you direction, but doing it is a totally different ball game. Coltrane, Dizzy, Hubbard, Morello, Bird, Rich, etc, learned "on the job", not sitting in a class.

the thing is though, rick, is I'm starting jazz from scratch. I ain't got a clue. These guys were probably around other players their whole lives. I just need some pointers that isn't Youtube

[agent_orange]

+1

I'm guessing you guys came in halfway through the thread. I've asked for advice on being quieter. I just don't consider I'm particularly loud in the first place

[rickthedrummer]

the thing is though, rick, is I'm starting jazz from scratch. I ain't got a clue. These guys were probably around other players their whole lives. I just need some pointers that isn't Youtube

AO, everybody "starts" jazz from scratch.

I started playing at 10, in 1956. All you heard was R&R on the radio, so that is where I got my start, just playing along to records.

Then, when I was about 12, I saw Buddy Rich on (I think) Jack Parr. He was with Harry James and they did Caravan. That moved me from R&R to jazz.

I started buying jazz records, everyone from Dave Brubeck to Art Blakey. Didn't have any idea what I was doing except playing along to the records.

Gradually I started to get the feel for what they were doing. It is a process of learning to "feel" the music and then improvise within the framework of the music.

What I'm trying to say is I just don't believe it can be taught.

[rickthedrummer]

I'm guessing you guys came in halfway through the thread. I've asked for advice on being quieter. I just don't consider I'm particularly loud in the first place

If that's the case, you have to work on better stick control.

[Russ]

Any genre can be taught.

[agent_orange]

Something else I just thought of,is, for them, th loudest drum was th bass drum,so I started using heel down,which was still too loud.I think I'm fighting a losing battle.
Unless,I'm in denial and need drummers anonymous....stand up and say "my name is Adie and I'm a loud drummer".:-)

[LovinLatinDrumming]

Maybe when your band members say you are playing too loud, they actually mean you are playing too much. Maybe they want more groove, more space. If this is correct, then take some stuff out of what you are playing. What you don't play is as important as what you do play, if you are feeling the groove (which I bet you are). Try eights instead of sixteens on your ride/HH. Or fours instead of eights. Or play more on the offbeat. Just play less busy.

And are you doing too many fills? Try doing none whatsoever.

Also, most of the time the sticks I use are 7s. Lighter than 5s that lots of drummers use, and is easier therefore to play more lightly.

[gottdonn13]

I'm guessing you guys came in halfway through the thread. I've asked for advice on being quieter. I just don't consider I'm particularly loud in the first place

You might not, but they evidently do. If you wanna stay in the band you and the band need to work something out with it.

If that's the case, you have to work on better stick control.

+1

I think I'm fighting a losing battle.
Unless,I'm in denial

(Said only to try and help) Maybe you are in some form, you seem to be reading what you want to from the responses rather than what people really mean.

Try talking it through with the band more to make it clearer in your head. at the end of the day its them youve got to mix in with!

[drumsetsnide]

I've found keeping dynamics in mind will help a lot.

Pull back a little and don't power through everything you play. (Not judging since I've never heard you but many people who play drums beat them instead of play them.) You'll find many places you play will also complain about being too loud.

You do bring up a good point about the band being used to E-Drums. I don't like Hot-rod (sticks). They don't give you the same feel.

A big part of being the percussionist is being able to play with the music. I totally concentrate on being quiet especially during vocal lines.

Again, it gets back to dynamics. You should be able to play "less loud" when needed.

Good luck with the new project.

Very well said.

Understanding dynamics is a art by itself. There are times when you can bash away, and there are times where you have to "pull the plug".

I've played at full volume, and also played where the sticks were 2-3" above drums and cymbals. Stick control is all important, and it comes with a combination of practice and experience.

Looking back, I learned more about dynamics playin jazz, which calls for more stick control because the volume level may change several times in 1 song.

Great points Rick.

I'm in a similar situation where I currently practice. In addition to the room being loud the other guys in the band also made it very clear in the beginning, before I even rehearsed with them for the first time, that the band and music was going to be vocally driven. That's not to say that they don't want me to lay down nice grooves and sit back there playing a simple 4/4. Quite the opposite. They want great musicians with nice skills that know how to control themselves and their instruments. Dynamics means more than just controlling volume. It also means knowing when NOT to play and when (leaving just the right amount of space between beats) and also knowing when and how to accent and compliment what the music is saying and the other instruments WHILE being conscious of the levels at which you are playing.

[rickthedrummer]

Any genre can be taught.

How do you teach something that changes almost every time you play?

[Kazaamski]

How do you teach something that changes almost every time you play?

There are still foundations which are built upon. The "jazz ride pattern", feathering, hihat on 2 and 4. And from there you can build, experiment, and branch out. You do learn more from "feeling" things out and playing. But foundations must be laid. Unless it's a freeform jazz odyssey...

[kay-gee]

I think a lot of what is taught is song form. As a drummer, not playing chord changes and melodies, it is easy to lose where you are in the cycle. As far as other instruments, there's a ton of theory, swung eigth's, chromatic scales, chord voicings etc... etc...Jazz is intricate music.

all the best...

[rickthedrummer]

There are still foundations which are built upon. The "jazz ride pattern", feathering, hihat on 2 and 4. And from there you can build, experiment, and branch out. You do learn more from "feeling" things out and playing. But foundations must be laid. Unless it's a freeform jazz odyssey...

Kaz, With all due respect, the foundations are laid from the artists that came before, not in a classroom.

[kay-gee]

I'm in a similar situation where I currently practice. In addition to the room being loud the other guys in the band also made it very clear in the beginning, before I even rehearsed with them for the first time, that the band and music was going to be vocally driven. That's not to say that they don't want me to lay down nice grooves and sit back there playing a simple 4/4. Quite the opposite. They want great musicians with nice skills that know how to control themselves and their instruments. Dynamics means more than just controlling volume. It also means knowing when NOT to play and when (leaving just the right amount of space between beats) and also knowing when and how to accent and compliment what the music is saying and the other instruments WHILE being conscious of the levels at which you are playing.
__________________

A rule of thumb for me, when starting out with new guys, is to really under play. They will be sure to let me know if they require more. Another thing. I've said this before but it bears repeating... The singer is king. You should take your cues, rhythmically and dynamically from him/her. The singing is what the audience hears. It is the job of the whole band to make the singers job easy.

all the best...