Playing the bass drum slightly ahead of the beat?

**drbongo42** · 05-21-2014, 10:11 AM

I have been playing the drums over thirty years in a variety of different bands. Recently I have started playing in a new band and the bassist (who is a professional sound engineer who has worked with loads of big name bands) claims that on certain songs – primarily when I am playing alternating ¼ notes on the bass and snare in 2/4 feels that my bass drum is slightly ahead of the beat although my hands and left foot are fine. I can’t hear it myself, and no-one else in the band or any other band I have been in have ever mentioned this before. Also it doesn’t happen when I am playing swing, 1/8 note rock or latin etc – just when I am playing only ¼ notes. I imagine most ordinary listeners or musicians wouldn’t notice it but he has shown me a recording on pro-tools and the bass drum is a few milliseconds ahead of the beat. He thinks it is to do with the height of my stool, which I lowered – and although it seemed to fix the issue temporarily I obviously adapted to the new height and it came back. So it seems to me there are several explanations for this: a) It is just that I perceive the beat to be in a slightly different place to him on these specific songs - i.e. he could be playing behind the beat; b) It is the height of my stool and/or the distance I sit from the bass drum; c) The settings on the bass drum pedal itself or d) a combination of all of the above. If it is a) then there is little I can do about it – but if it is b) and/or c) does anyone have any insight into how height, positioning and/or the mechanics of a bass drum pedal can lead to a note being ahead (or I suppose behind) the beat? When I started playing the drums I had jazz lessons and played with my heel down at low volumes – over the years I played in more loud rock bands with no drum mics and this lead me to raise the level of my stool and have my heel up so I could get more speed/volume out of the pedal without cramping up over a gig. – so maybe the solution would be to return to heal down and mic up the bass drum? Any suggestions/advice appreciated…

**porkpieguy** · 05-21-2014, 10:14 AM

Play with a metronome when you practice. This might help.

**8beat** · 05-21-2014, 10:49 AM

Is there a particular song that you can play along with that has the same timing that you want?

**JohnnySticks** · 05-21-2014, 11:05 AM

If it's only happening on one type of time signature or style song, then it tells me that you may need to rewire your brain a little. I guess I'd have the band play one of the offending songs while I started deconstructing the drum elements until I could feel where I was going wrong. Also, if you're certain the bass is right on beat then I'd really tune into him, watching and listening, to see if it helped me get synced up better.

**xsabers** · 05-21-2014, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by porkpieguy

Play with a metronome when you practice. This might help.

THIS and record it so you can critique your timing. Your ear is as big an issue as your foot, especially if you say you can't hear it but it shows up on Pro Tools. Seat elevation, pedal settings, etc. are not likely to be the problem. They should be set for comfort.

**Cheznug** · 05-21-2014, 10:02 PM

I had the same problem for my first couple months, but it happened in more situations. I also occasionally could hear it while playing. It turned out my problem was that in my mind I was syncing the start of the hand movements and the start of the foot movement, instead of syncing the ends. And since I could get the beater to the bass drum faster than I could get the sticks to the hats and snare, that resulted in the kick being a bit early.

I don't know if your problem is related, but I hope this helps.

**Northern Redneck** · 05-21-2014, 11:46 PM

Youre pushing a little bit, and I mean a very little bit. Many drummers move the beat around on songs to change the feel of them. Youre talking milliseconds here a time period so small your brain doesnt work that fast. I would tell the bass player to take the stick out of his butt. Music is organic its supposed to breathe and have life to it. If he wants perfection get a drum machine.

**Dodeska** · 05-22-2014, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by Northern Redneck

Youre pushing a little bit, and I mean a very little bit. Many drummers move the beat around on songs to change the feel of them. Youre talking milliseconds here a time period so small your brain doesnt work that fast. I would tell the bass player to take the stick out of his butt. Music is organic its supposed to breathe and have life to it. If he wants perfection get a drum machine.

This.
Are all of the notes he plays bang on the money? I bet they're not.

**joe1960** · 05-22-2014, 04:28 AM

I agree with Northern Redneck

**markthechuck** · 05-22-2014, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by Northern Redneck

Youre pushing a little bit, and I mean a very little bit. Many drummers move the beat around on songs to change the feel of them. Youre talking milliseconds here a time period so small your brain doesnt work that fast. I would tell the bass player to take the stick out of his butt. Music is organic its supposed to breathe and have life to it. If he wants perfection get a drum machine.

Absolutely this.

**kay-gee** · 05-22-2014, 07:01 AM

Music is organic its supposed to breathe and have life to it. If he wants perfection get a drum machine.

Good ole NR...nails it every time!

When music demands that kind of mathematical perfection, it ceases to be human. After all isn't music supposed to be by humans for humans?!!

all the best...

**drbongo42** · 05-22-2014, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by Cheznug

I had the same problem for my first couple months, but it happened in more situations. I also occasionally could hear it while playing. It turned out my problem was that in my mind I was syncing the start of the hand movements and the start of the foot movement, instead of syncing the ends. And since I could get the beater to the bass drum faster than I could get the sticks to the hats and snare, that resulted in the kick being a bit early.

I don't know if your problem is related, but I hope this helps.

Hi - I think you may have hit the nail on the head - I started coming to similar conclusions last night. I decided to analyse what was happening by using the rhythm coach on the Roland TD4. It turns out that I am staying in tempo

, but at slower tempos my bass drum is slightly ahead of the beat - and at faster tempos it is slightly behind the beat... So what is happening is that I change the position of my hands depending on the tempo - closer to the heads at fast tempos, and further away on slow tempos - however the bass drum pedal is fixed - so it always takes about the same amount of time for it to strike the head - which is too fast at slow tempos and too slow at fast tempos. So in terms of simple physics in order to play exactly on the beat a drummer has to start the stroke before the beat, to play behind the beat he has to start the stroke on the beat, or to play ahead he has to start even earlier before the beat. So to correct the issue I would have to change the timing of when I started to press the pedal depending on what tempo I was playing, but not my hands :(. Maybe most drummers do this instinctively, or maybe like me they just don't notice the difference - we are only talking a few milliseconds here. I am not sure I am capable of making such a subtle change, especially if I am trying to concentrate on playing complex parts with stops and accent phrasing etc - so I may try experimenting with adjusting the starting angle of the beater on the pedal so that it has further to travel - although this may make it strike after the beat at faster tempos...

**drbongo42** · 05-22-2014, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by kay-gee

Good ole NR...nails it every time!

When music demands that kind of mathematical perfection, it ceases to be human. After all isn't music supposed to be by humans for humans?!!

all the best...

I agree that music should be organic and there is nothing wrong with small fluctuations in tempo/feel as long as suits the musical style etc, and it may also be true that it is the bassist who is playing behind the beat, which would make my bass pedal seem even more ahead of the beat than it actually is - but I don't want to make it into a big ego match of who is right - it is probably a bit of both - me slightly ahead and him slightly behind. So if I can fix my end then it's up to him to fix his

**Northern Redneck** · 05-22-2014, 07:23 AM

Wait, is he comparing your kick drum hits to his bass or a metronome?

**drbongo42** · 05-22-2014, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by Northern Redneck

Wait, is he comparing your kick drum hits to his bass or a metronome?

We are not using a click - he is referring to where he thinks the beat should ideally be - but in my mind you can only talk about being on/behind/ahead of a beat that is actually being played on an instrument - so relative to his bass I am ahead, or he is behind - but in my head I am playing to the timing from the rhythm guitar and vocals. He seems to want me to set the timing and then play behind the beat - I can't do both - I can either play on time, or I can play behind the timing provided from another source...

I suspect he is being a bit too pedantic about it all - the result of twenty years of drum machines/seqencers and pro-tools allowing people to analyse performances to microscopic levels...

Pretty sure now that it is to do with what I mentioned earlier - starting the press the pedal at the same time as I start to move the stick, but the pedal arriving earlier as it has less distance to travel...

**kay-gee** · 05-22-2014, 01:22 PM

I think sometimes way too big of a deal is made of time. There is good time and bad time, no perfect time, except for machines and the machines have raised the bar to unrealistic levels.
Think of centuries of great performances by drummers and bands that never even heard of click tracks much less playing live with therm, and had GREAT time.

all the best...

**Drumbledore** · 05-22-2014, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by drbongo42

We are not using a click - he is referring to where he thinks the beat should ideally be - but in my mind you can only talk about being on/behind/ahead of a beat that is actually being played on an instrument - so relative to his bass I am ahead, or he is behind - but in my head I am playing to the timing from the rhythm guitar and vocals. He seems to want me to set the timing and then play behind the beat - I can't do both - I can either play on time, or I can play behind the timing provided from another source...

I suspect he is being a bit too pedantic about it all - the result of twenty years of drum machines/seqencers and pro-tools allowing people to analyse performances to microscopic levels...

Pretty sure now that it is to do with what I mentioned earlier - starting the press the pedal at the same time as I start to move the stick, but the pedal arriving earlier as it has less distance to travel...

Well, sounds like he needs to lay off the over-analysing a bit. And he's saying to you to set the timing and then play behind the beat? Tell him this....

**slinglander** · 05-22-2014, 01:49 PM

If the other band members don't have a problem with you, then it's the bass' problem.
(milliseconds?....who figures beats in milliseconds?)

Couple things: possibly he doesn't clearly hear the kick over his bass(both are bass)
or, there is a delay in the sound of the kick to his ears: mic-to-PA-to him, a millisecond delay over the cables(add the fact that bass' low frequencies peaks are fewer than those of the snare's, higher frequencies and could seem delayed)

**Northern Redneck** · 05-22-2014, 04:56 PM

Play the song to a click see what happens. Until then nobody can say for sure.

**drbongo42** · 05-23-2014, 05:27 AM

To conclude the thread it seems that a lot of people agree that drummers have different feels. Some play ahead of the beat, on it or behind it and this can vary from tune to tune and is probably something instinctive rather than a conscious decision for most of us, and this is a natural part of live music. However it also seems there is a very subtle mechanical design flaw with bass drum pedals - This is the fact that they are fixed in position and assuming that someone wants to play notes at the same volume (which means the stick/beater moving at the same speed when it strikes) - you must move the position of the hands/sticks at different tempos so that the time it takes from the start of the stroke to striking the drum or cymbal changes - i.e. at fast tempos the distance is closer and thus takes less time - while at slow tempos the distance is greater and it takes longer. But because the bass drum pedal is fixed you can't allow for this in the same way - you could press the pedal down faster or slower, but this would change the volume, or you could change the time at which you begin pressing the pedal - i.e. slightly later for slow tempos and slightly earlier for fast tempo. But this would mean starting the stroke at a different time to starting the stroke with the hands - not something I imagine it would be easy to do consciously - although maybe some people do this instinctively. The only mechanical solution I can think of would be to have a way of adjusting the pedal setup on fly on a song by song basis, so that the beater had to travel further at slow tempos, and less distance at fast tempos... Does this anaylysis/conclusion make sense to anyone else, or is it all in my over active imagination...

Thanks for all the tips and suggestions

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