Drummers Who Get Paid

[marko138]

Can't say that your analogy holds much water. People have hobbies and certainly music can be a hobby. But those other activities you mentioned are not providing a service for a for-profit business. If you wind surf, it affects only you. No one is coming to the beach to watch you perform and buy food and drinks from the owner of the beach. No one tells you when to be there and how long you can surf. No one cares if you are good or terrible. No one leaves the beach and makes the beach owner angry of you are no good or too loud.

A lot of people enjoy cooking and cook for free at home for their own enjoyment. They even host parties and create masterful spreads. However, if a bunch of these people started showing up at restaurants and offered to cook for free, how do you think that would make the professional kitchen staff feel? How valuable would professionals be if the marketplace became saturated with cook-for-free chefs?

If you want to cook for free, volunteer at a soup kitchen, school, or church. Host private dinner parties, etc. If you want to drum for free, volunteer at a church or non-profit. Host a backyard party and jam away. But if you respect your peers, not to mention yourself, then value what you do enough to be really good at it, and recognize your efforts have value and deserve compensation. It's not even about the actual dollars, which for many of us can be really insufficient for the amount of effort involved. But there is also a principle at play here.

Respectfully,
x

Hit it out of the park. Well said, X.

[rickthedrummer]

All the club owners need to get on board. If one pays then they all should. Do these club owners use their live entertainment for a tax write off?

I'm kind of surprised at the amount we do get "sometimes" around here to play 45 min of originals. But what if nobody in your area pays? then what?
and wasn't there a musicians union at one time? I was never a part of it but I remember my brother talking about it. Must have been in the late 70's early 80's.

The Musicians Union has been around for over a hundred years, but from what I saw back in the '60's, it was optional, not mandatory.

I did have to have a cabaret card in NYC.

[slinky]

Rick how much was the cabaret card? how did it work? no card no play?

[rickthedrummer]

Rick how much was the cabaret card? how did it work? no card no play?

I don't remember the cost, if there was 1. You did have to go to Police Headquarters and be photographed and fingerprinted.

Most of the time for R&R bands, they didn't bother you because we played mainly out of NYC, but a lot of jazz players had problems, mainly due to drug use.

This is a snippet of a article on the card:

"What opportunities were stymied by the cabaret card? How much sooner might Monk have found recognition, and what would the effect have been on his psyche? What if Miles Davis hadn’t lost his card in 1959, after being clubbed outside of Birdland: Might he have found more work for his sextet, fresh off the release of Kind of Blue? Think of the reputations that moldered, the engagements that never came to pass.

The cabaret law, as it pertained to musicians, finally met its end in 1967, after years of legal challenge, notably in cases involving Lord Buckley and Nina Simone. As for Parker and his letter, he was the rare musician whose appeal met with success, though it’s unclear whether this was cause and effect. (It’s just as possible that some midtown club owner, seeking to profit from his notoriety, worked his backroom connections.) Whatever the case, Parker’s plight was already underway. And while there’s no denying the clutch of his demons, who’s to say how much better he might have fared in a culture that didn’t legislate the execution of his art?"


They got rid of them after I went in the service.

[kay-gee]

My situation is a little different from the average. I play with a couple of guys who CANNOT be paid to play (the law of the land), so even though legally I can take money, I don't because it would kinda be unfair and weird. We're all OK with it though. We have no name and play strictly at times of our choosing. We can't be booked or hired. We call ourselves jammers!
I'm sure I could drum in a Bahamian band and play tourist music all night and be paid but I'm just not into it.

all the best...

PS We still consume enough free food and booze to choke a horse (spouses included) so it turns out to be a fairly cheap night out for us all.

all the best...

[EddieV]

My situation is a little different from the average. I play with a couple of guys who CANNOT be paid to play (the law of the land),

Why?

[markthechuck]

i did a couple when i first started gigging, we normally do 1 free charity gig a year for a really good cause, a gig isn't just the 2 hours playing...that's the easy part, it's starting to get everything ready a 5pm then getting home a 2am..i ain't doing all that for free.

[N2Bluz]

I've had several bar owners tell me that in addition to paying a live band, they are also required to pay money to some kind of organization that comes arounds and checks up on them. Supposedly, they are even supposed to pay royalties or dues (or whatever it is) to have a Juke Box on the premisis. I have no idea what this is about, but I assume it has to do with the recording artists or some type of Union?

I can almost understand if you hire a cover band and you are making money off the song rights owned by an artist. But....if its an original band, or a Blues band that plays covers of "public domain" songs, then what?

[crispycritters]

I've had several bar owners tell me that in addition to paying a live band, they are also required to pay money to some kind of organization that comes arounds and checks up on them. Supposedly, they are even supposed to pay royalties or dues (or whatever it is) to have a Juke Box on the premisis. I have no idea what this is about, but I assume it has to do with the recording artists or some type of Union?

I can almost understand if you hire a cover band and you are making money off the song rights owned by an artist. But....if its an original band, or a Blues band that plays covers of "public domain" songs, then what?

That sounds dubious to me, I think there is a possibility that the bar owner was trying to use it as a price negotiation tool. As for juke boxes - they are the same as gaming machines over here - they tend to be rented and the bar owner keeps a percentage of the profit over the rental charge - maybe the company that owns the juke box pays royalty fees? I have never heard of bar owners having to pay royalty fees for music performed by cover bands - perhaps that's a US thing. I hope the bar owner is lying - if not you can guarantee we will get something similar in the UK.

I did work in a factory years ago which used to have local radio broadcast. This was stopped as apparently public radio is intended for home use only - the factory owners would have had to pay some royalty fees! After this we were not allowed to bring in private radios.

[Markadiddle]

I've had several bar owners tell me that in addition to paying a live band, they are also required to pay money to some kind of organization that comes arounds and checks up on them. Supposedly, they are even supposed to pay royalties or dues (or whatever it is) to have a Juke Box on the premisis. I have no idea what this is about, but I assume it has to do with the recording artists or some type of Union?

I can almost understand if you hire a cover band and you are making money off the song rights owned by an artist. But....if its an original band, or a Blues band that plays covers of "public domain" songs, then what?

Like the mafia?

[Shamani]

I'm in a metal band we play almost all originals. around here the only pay you will get is a cut of the door which will pay for gas most of the time.

[N2Bluz]

I've had several different bar owners and even long time musician friends confirm it. I don't remember what the organization/agency is called. From what I understand, it costs them a fee almost as much as paying the band. One gal that owns a small bar eont hire ANY live music, just because she cant afford it if she gets caught. They don't come around very often, but they do check in from time to time.

[N2Bluz]

I believe it's the ASCAP. Another is maybe BMI? Artists license their music with them, then the go around to clubs, bars & restaraunts that play music (live band, DJ, whatever) for entertainment. They require the venue to purchase a yearly permit to play the songs. If the venue DOESN'T buy the permit, they send investigators on occasion to catch them. They then fine them PER SONG for the infraction. If they buy the annual permit, everything is cool. The problem is a bar that doesn't. Unfortunately, many small town bars around here don't. I imagine the ones that hire bands & DJ's on a regular basis buy the permits.

[marko138]

I've had several different bar owners and even long time musician friends confirm it. I don't remember what the organization/agency is called. From what I understand, it costs them a fee almost as much as paying the band. One gal that owns a small bar eont hire ANY live music, just because she cant afford it if she gets caught. They don't come around very often, but they do check in from time to time.

It's ASCAP and BMI, and it's a licensing fee that venues are required to pay if they have music that belongs to those organizations. It applies mostly to cover bands, as they are playing someone else's published material. But original bands can also have their music registered with ASCAP and/or BMI and would receive royalties for playing those songs.

From what I understand the fee is a few hundred bucks a year, hardly bank breaking money for the bar.

[xsabers]

It's ASCAP and BMI, and it's a licensing fee that venues are required to pay if they have music that belongs to those organizations. It applies mostly to cover bands, as they are playing someone else's published material. But original bands can also have their music registered with ASCAP and/or BMI and would receive royalties for playing those songs.

From what I understand the fee is a few hundred bucks a year, hardly bank breaking money for the bar.

Partially true, but the fees are based on the venue's capacity so some places can really get jobbed if they aren't filling the house each night. My singer had a friend who is one of these enforcers. She goes into a place like Burger King and hears music. She casually asks the girl at the counter what radio station is on. The reply was "Oh, it's not a radio, my boss has his CD player plugged in". BAM! You've just been fined. True story. The names were changed to protect the innocent.

[marko138]

Partially true, but the fees are based on the venue's capacity so some places can really get jobbed if they aren't filling the house each night. My singer had a friend who is one of these enforcers. She goes into a place like Burger King and hears music. She casually asks the girl at the counter what radio station is on. The reply was "Oh, it's not a radio, my boss has his CD player plugged in". BAM! You've just been fined. True story. The names were changed to protect the innocent.

Wow, that's interesting.

[late8]

I've had several different bar owners and even long time musician friends confirm it. I don't remember what the organization/agency is called. From what I understand, it costs them a fee almost as much as paying the band. One gal that owns a small bar eont hire ANY live music, just because she cant afford it if she gets caught. They don't come around very often, but they do check in from time to time.

ASCAP and BMI agents have just about put many live venues out of business in my town....

Quote from ASCAP:

"The annual rate depends on the type of business. Generally, rates are based on the manner in which music is performed (live, recorded or audio only or audio/visual) and the size of the establishment or potential audience for the music. For example, rates for restaurants, nightclubs, bars and similar establishments depend on whether the music is live or recorded, whether it's audio only or audio visual, the number of nights per week music is offered, whether admission is charged and several other factors.

Concert rates are based on the ticket revenue and seating capacity of the facility. Rates for music used by corporations ("Music In Business") are based upon the number of employees. College and university rates are based upon the number of full time students; retail store rates depend on the number of speakers and square footage. Hotel rates are based on a percentage of entertainment expenses for live music and an additional charge if recorded music is used.

Because ASCAP has over a hundred different licenses and rate schedules, one will likely fit your needs. ASCAP operates under the principle that similarly situated users should be treated similarly. This assures fairness and consistency in our licensing. For example, rates for restaurants of the same size, with the same use of music are the same regardless of whether the restaurant is in Oshkosh or New York City."

[N2Bluz]

I understand the principal behind it; artists get paid for use of their music. I think if a venue plans on using recorded or live music as a regular part of their business, it makes sense. The problems arise when a venue doesn't typically have music, but decides to try hiring an occasional band or DJ for special events. I've had some small bars that really want to try hiring live bands, but they are scared or don't want to risk a fine. The idea of an eating establishment getting fined for playing recorded background music is a little disturbing.

[EddieV]

ASCAP and BMI are like The Mafia in this town.

In addition to the BMI/ASCAP fee's...venues here have to have an Entertainment License to have live bands. No license? They'll shut you down.

[kay-gee]

Why?

Quite simply it's the law. Ex-Pats (non-Bahamian residents) cannot recieve payment for work other than what is specifically stated in their work permits which in the case for these guys. One is an accountant at a foreign owned hotel and one heads up the American military base here. I am allowed employment at anything anywhere here because of my status as a spousal resident. Though it's a small country, the Immigration Dept. can make a lot of trouble for people for non-compliance. Hope that clears it up.

all the best...

[funkyruss]

I'm in a metal band we play almost all originals. around here the only pay you will get is a cut of the door which will pay for gas most of the time.

Same here, except for the metal part, all originals, no pay...door only, then ya gotta pay the door person too! or bring your mom!

[Drumbledore]

It's ASCAP and BMI, and it's a licensing fee that venues are required to pay if they have music that belongs to those organizations.

Our version of it here is APRA (Australasian Performing Rights Association) and AMCOS ( Australasian Mechanical Copyright Owners Society). You do see a number of places like cafés, gyms, clubs & venues that publicly play recorded music who sport the sticker, but APRA don't seem to reinforce their rules as much as they would like, so it seems to me.

[xsabers]

The good news is that it's the responsibility of the establishment. Sure, it affects our bottom line as the money has to come from somewhere but can you imagine the headache of going after garage bands one by one, most of which are not even actual legal entities? They realize it's much easier to hold the business accountable. How many of us even ask if a place we are going to play is current on their fees? It would seem about as awkward as asking about their corporate taxes.

[Revolutionary Spirit]

wow, there's a lot of bitterness in this forum. American muso friends of mine tell me it's v different in the states but I had no idea.

I play in half dozen bands or so. mostly local acts with no name and no money. here IS no money. If I said, right guys i need you to pay me, they'd just call somone else and I'd look like a reral nasty person. it's just not done in the UK. Unless you want to look like a W%$£&er.

On the other hand I also play with a band with a name and we go out for around £500 a show. Those nights I get some money. I would NEVER ask for it however.

I want to play. I want to demonstrate my art. This dos NOT make me a bad person i Am NOT doing other musicians a disservice. That's nonsense.

If you want to just make money become a plumber. in the UK at least you are NOT going to do it playing drums.

I also play for a guy with whom I feel it is AN HONOUR to play with. He sometimes gives me some expenses and food/drink etc is part of the deal. We get to play NIIIICE venues.

I do not want him to pay me, the benefit I get is being able to play with him.

In the 90's I was on a salary playng drums and it was very cool, but the guys who were taklking of nothing but there tax returns were tools, interested in nothing but money.

It's not about m,oney it's a beautiful artistic, healing thing. Share it. Give it. Experience it.

I'll shut up now...

[Nechre]

A short answer to "Will you play for free?"- Pretty much no.

Is this narcissistic, or selfish? No, I don't think so, I know exactly what I'm worth, and it's not just your thanks and a handshake. Think about it, I'm carrying around a several thousand dollar kit (~4-5k) I'm spending my time not only playing, but driving, setting up, waiting and tearing down.

I enjoy playing, yes, that's true, but I'm done playing free gigs. I don't take gigs where I don't get paid, and our band doesn't play gigs where we don't get paid, and we play a lot. Act professional, and be good. Back up your talk with your actions. If you're good enough to be paid to play, people will hire you.

But remember that you do have to keep yourself visible. You could be the best, but if nobody knows who you are, then you won't get hired. I know plenty of less talented musicians that get gigs because they're always there, going to other people's gigs, going to jams, doing recording demos. I forget who said it, but there's a quote that goes something like "80% of success is just showing up." Go to jams, that's what I do, blues jams, open jams, etc. Eventually, if you're good enough, someone may ask you to fill in, or join a band - happened to me.

There are very few occurrences where I might play for free, and they would have to involve a lot of publicity and potential for reward down the line.