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Thread: Speaking of No longer Available

  1. #1

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    In early 2012 I did a lot of research on a mid-level purchase..........the quality of this mid-level offering from all makers had been increased greatly with the China-based manufacturing.
    Looked at Meridians, Crush, Catalinas, a few others.
    I compared them to the used sets I could find at the time.

    After all information was digested, I made a decision and purchased a new set of Ludwig Epics with the natural birch finish.
    The construction is 2 plies of birch over 2 plies of maple over 2 plies of birch.

    I was pleasantly surprised at the build quality and the beauty of the shells when I opened the boxes...............I checked every screw and all hardware, as well as all bearing edges............everything was gorgeous.
    They don't sound as good as my vintage Gretsch USA shells, but they sound great for the money I paid.............a good value.

    Does anyone know why Ludwig no longer offers the Epic series ?
    Gretsch USA & Zildjian
    (What Else Would I Ever Need ?)


  2. #2

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    Probably did not sell well. I test rode one of those a few years back when they 1st came out and while they looked absolutely gorgeous I found the sound to be ehhh. Of course that was with stock heads and all. I personally hated the rack tom mounts and the 20" deep kick but I agree they seemed like decent kits for the money. Probably not a good profit margin either to use that nice hardware.
    Ludwig Classic Maple 22x16,10x8,12x9,16x16
    7" Moon Gel Practice Pad
    Sabian HHX Legacy

    Decide whether this is love for the craft or simply an ego thing

    http://www.redskymary.com/ NOT MY BAND, JUST A GREAT LOCAL BAND WHO SHOULD BE SOOO MUCH BIGGER IMO

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by MDK View Post
    Probably did not sell well. I test rode one of those a few years back when they 1st came out and while they looked absolutely gorgeous I found the sound to be ehhh. Of course that was with stock heads and all. I personally hated the rack tom mounts and the 20" deep kick but I agree they seemed like decent kits for the money. Probably not a good profit margin either to use that nice hardware.
    The hardware is good.............love the lugs and the "antique" chrome.
    I bought a nice heavy duty dual tom stand for the two rack toms and solved that problem forever.
    Stock heads were trash -- I put coated Emps on the batter and clear Ambos on the reso for all toms.
    The bass batters are clear PS3.............and BTW, my basses are 18X22.
    The snare also got a coated Emp but I never loved it.
    The sound of the birch is not my favorite but I agree, as you say, for the money, the quality is great and the sound is good, even though not the best.
    In a gig situation through a decent PA they would be fine.
    Gretsch USA & Zildjian
    (What Else Would I Ever Need ?)


  4. #4

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    What is a ehhh sound so I'll know what it is and try to avoid it.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    What is a ehhh sound so I'll know what it is and try to avoid it.
    Sometimes I hit some drums and it's like WOW those are nice, other times it's like Ehhhh I have heard better. You will know it when you hear it.
    Ludwig Classic Maple 22x16,10x8,12x9,16x16
    7" Moon Gel Practice Pad
    Sabian HHX Legacy

    Decide whether this is love for the craft or simply an ego thing

    http://www.redskymary.com/ NOT MY BAND, JUST A GREAT LOCAL BAND WHO SHOULD BE SOOO MUCH BIGGER IMO

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    What is a ehhh sound so I'll know what it is and try to avoid it.

  7. #7

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    Maybe Ludwig just had too many offerings. The Epics maybe just got overshadowed? Then again, maybe the hybrid shells were the issue. Birch & Maple....neither of which is "exotic".
    -Brian

    "Too many crappy used drum stuff to list"

    Play the SONG......not the DRUMS!!!

    "I think that feeling is a lot more important than technique. It's all very well doing a triple paradiddle - but who's going to know you've done it? If you play technically you sound like everybody else. It's being original that counts." ~ John Bonham

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by N2Bluz View Post
    Birch & Maple....neither of which is "exotic".
    Both of which are proven winners in shell composition.
    I suspect it was intended to try to warm the harsher sound of the birch.
    I don't know of any maker offering a mid-level exotic........seems oxymoronic.
    Gretsch USA & Zildjian
    (What Else Would I Ever Need ?)


  9. #9

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    Maybe the Epic was overpriced? Can't say about the pricing policy outside the UK but over here an Epic 4 piece kits are being sold by a certain UK online store (with Mapex! hardware kit) for £1,350 - this is a 'sale' price! Looking at this kit the shells are Walnut/Poplar/Walnut - with birch re-rings, maybe I'm thinking of a different version.

    All other mainstream manufacturers seem to stick to the traditional birch or maple for their mid range models and they retail for around £1,000 complete with good hardware, maybe the price was too much and the hybrid shells were considered too risky.

    If you shop around £1,350 will get you a new 4 piece B/B Starclassic or Saturn IV shellpack and a good hardware set! Admittedly you will still have to buy a snare.

    It will be interesting to see how long the Mapex Armory series remains in production - and if a success will other manufacturers start offering hybrid shells in their mid ranges. Over here the Armory 6! piece shell packs retail everywhere for £650. The £700 remaining will buy a lot of hardware.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by N2Bluz View Post
    Maybe Ludwig just had too many offerings. The Epics maybe just got overshadowed? Then again, maybe the hybrid shells were the issue. Birch & Maple....neither of which is "exotic".
    I think it was a matter of finding a niche, given they had the Accents, Elements, Element Birch, then added the Breakbeats and Signet.

    People who know drums and are buying Ludwig for the name are buying the higher end stuff in general. Otherwise people are going with what they see in the big box stores, etc... and I think the Mapex stuff, Catalinas, and Superstar/Silverstar kits had a lot more exposure.

    I had an Epic snare that was actually a great little snare considering it cost me $100. Traded it away in an even better deal.
    Jesse

    1986 Tama Crestar - Lacquered Piano White
    2016 Roland TD-25K
    2015 Tama Starclassic B/B - Indigo Blue Sparkle

  11. #11

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    I don't think ludwig has ever quite figured out the intermediate range kits. They have made some awesome kits, but never become known for their intermediate stuff.
    They do a good job with getting sales on entry kits and pro kits.


    I think that right now Mapex is the king of intermediate, with Gretsch, Tama and PDP right next to them.
    -Steven

  12. #12

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    It seems as if the company can never make up their mind. Quite a few great series have been discontinued.

    I have the accent cs customs. All birch shells. Beautiful drums. They were discontinued a few years ago, no idea why. They're an amazing quality mid to high end kit. Quite frustrating since it's impossible to find add ons. I've been looking for a 10" tom for 3 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    There is intelligent life out there. The problem is that there isn't any here.

    -Mike

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by crispycritters View Post
    Maybe the Epic was overpriced? Can't say about the pricing policy outside the UK but over here an Epic 4 piece kits are being sold by a certain UK online store (with Mapex! hardware kit) for £1,350 - this is a 'sale' price! Looking at this kit the shells are Walnut/Poplar/Walnut - with birch re-rings, maybe I'm thinking of a different version.
    You might be thinking of a different series.
    I paid $1300 USD for the 7-pc kit below:




    Quote Originally Posted by kaosotis View Post
    I think it was a matter of finding a niche, given they had the Accents, Elements, Element Birch, then added the Breakbeats and Signet.
    People who know drums and are buying Ludwig for the name are buying the higher end stuff in general. Otherwise people are going with what they see in the big box stores, etc... and I think the Mapex stuff, Catalinas, and Superstar/Silverstar kits had a lot more exposure.
    Your thoughts contain much logic; no disagreements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta View Post
    I don't think ludwig has ever quite figured out the intermediate range kits. They have made some awesome kits, but never become known for their intermediate stuff.
    They do a good job with getting sales on entry kits and pro kits.
    I think that right now Mapex is the king of intermediate, with Gretsch, Tama and PDP right next to them.
    More of the same logic..............agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyByNight View Post
    It seems as if the company can never make up their mind. Quite a few great series have been discontinued.
    I have the accent cs customs. All birch shells. Beautiful drums. They were discontinued a few years ago, no idea why. They're an amazing quality mid to high end kit. Quite frustrating since it's impossible to find add ons. I've been looking for a 10" tom for 3 years.

    Many changes in the kit line-up at Ludwig over the last three years.
    The current webpage at Ludwig has their kit hierarchy as reflected below :

    American-made lines..............
    Legacy
    Classic Maple
    Vistalite
    Keystone
    Signet

    Then the others.............
    Specials
    Element
    Backbeats
    Accent

    When I bought the EPIC line, they were priced just below the Specials and above the Elements.............I was very happy with the product.............and I still am, but I don't gig with them.
    Last edited by Ricardo; 01-24-2015 at 08:23 AM.
    Gretsch USA & Zildjian
    (What Else Would I Ever Need ?)


  14. #14

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    I'm curious why you don't gig with them Ricardo? Other gig kit? Not gigging right now? Or feel they wouldn't fit the bill?

    I heard an Epic kit, and didn't love it as much as the snare, but then again it had horrible stock heads.

    Not sure why the manufacturers sell their mid range stuff short with crappy heads. The price difference per kit can't be much at all, and legit heads like you get on Starclassics, etc... would make for better curb appeal.
    Last edited by kaosotis; 01-24-2015 at 10:33 AM.
    Jesse

    1986 Tama Crestar - Lacquered Piano White
    2016 Roland TD-25K
    2015 Tama Starclassic B/B - Indigo Blue Sparkle

  15. #15

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    love that 7 piece Ricardo

  16. #16

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    [QUOTE=Ricardo;628400]You might be thinking of a different series.
    I paid $1300 USD for the 7-pc kit below:




    You are correct - I was looking at an Epic 'crossover' set, which given the shells described is obviously a different range from the regular Epic. I had an online search and a read of reviews of the Epic range which were birch and maple and not the Walnut/Poplar and Birch re-rings shelled set I was looking at. My bad - sorry for any confusion.

  17. #17

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    [QUOTE=crispycritters;628455]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
    You might be thinking of a different series.
    I paid $1300 USD for the 7-pc kit below:




    You are correct - I was looking at an Epic 'crossover' set, which given the shells described is obviously a different range from the regular Epic. I had an online search and a read of reviews of the Epic range which were birch and maple and not the Walnut/Poplar and Birch re-rings shelled set I was looking at. My bad - sorry for any confusion.
    I'm a Ludwig fan since the sixties, but their "approach" to selling import drums has been a confusing mess - and your story just illustrates that. This type of mismanagement just destroys the value of a very cherished name in percussion.

    Ludwig should stand for quality and value and should be very careful of what they paint their name on. Like all the drum companies, Ludwig has made giant strides in the quality of their imported kits, but I feel that their earlier import efforts have left a bad taste in the mouth of those who came to expect only the best from this company.

    If I were in control of Ludwig management (that's a scary thought ) I would establish a USA-made series and a super quality import series. All entry level kits would then be sold under a separate brand name -- "XXX by Ludwig." Sort of like DW with their USA and separate-named import lines. Make the name Ludwig stand for one thing only - quality, no matter where the drums are made. Then STICK to the plan!

    GeeDeeEmm

  18. #18

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    Amen! Gets too confusing with all the different series and the subtle differences.
    Proudly playing:
    Doc Sweeney Drums
    A bunch of snares
    A bunch of cymbals

    Off-Set double pedals

    I think I love to play the drums simply because you get to hit 'em!!!

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaosotis View Post
    I'm curious why you don't gig with them Ricardo? Other gig kit?
    The Epics are 10, 12, 14, 16, 22s & 14.
    The gig kit shells are 1977 Gretsch USA and sizes (and cases) are 13, 15, 18, 24, 14.
    I custom-ordered the USA shells in Feb., 1977 and they were delivered in August of that year (very close to the date of Elvis' death)..........after 37 years I still love gigging with those drums.................see below:


    Quote Originally Posted by SpazApproved View Post
    love that 7 piece Ricardo
    Thanks, Spaz............they do sound good for a middy kit.
    The small 14X14 floor tom is beautiful.............just a stand-out sound.



    Last edited by Ricardo; 01-25-2015 at 11:30 AM.
    Gretsch USA & Zildjian
    (What Else Would I Ever Need ?)


  20. #20

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    If i remember right the Epic series was originally the replacement for the Classic Birch series that was not selling to well. I know its a 7 piece kit but $1300 is getting up into the range of pro kit pricing. You can get a 6 piece Saturn for $1500. So maybe it was just to expensive for an intermediate kit? I got my 6 piece M birch for $700.
    -Steven

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta View Post
    If i remember right the Epic series was originally the replacement for the Classic Birch series that was not selling to well. I know its a 7 piece kit but $1300 is getting up into the range of pro kit pricing. You can get a 6 piece Saturn for $1500. So maybe it was just to expensive for an intermediate kit? I got my 6 piece M birch for $700.
    Dual basses are not cheap.............even at middy price.
    The 6-piece was just under $1000.
    Two USA floor toms will easily cost you more than $1300.
    A standard Les Paul is $2500.
    Gretsch USA & Zildjian
    (What Else Would I Ever Need ?)


  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
    Dual basses are not cheap.............even at middy price.
    The 6-piece was just under $1000.
    Two USA floor toms will easily cost you more than $1300.
    A standard Les Paul is $2500.
    Even with that, I think the price tag is why the line didn't survive. Looking on ebay a new 6 piece is priced right around $950 (3 up 1 down), while a new 5 piece Mars series is right at $600 (1 up 2 down), a 6 piece Silverstar is about $800 (2 up 2 down) and my 6 piece M birch (3 up 1 down) was $700.

    They might have put to many nice features to compete with the mid range. $250 is a big difference between the identical sized M Birch, but maybe the Epic is genuinely is a $250 better kit. When advertised as intermediate, its price appears high. Maybe it was a marketing fault, and it should have been the kit that closes the gap between intermediate and professional. The cheapest professional kit, rather than the most expensive intermediate?


    The epic series is definitely one of the prettiest intermediate kits in the last 10 years. Don't get me wrong, beautiful drums, I almost traded one of my favorite kits to get an Epic bop kit. I'm just trying to come up with an explanation to why it didn't make it.
    -Steven

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
    The Epics are 10, 12, 14, 16, 22s & 14.
    The gig kit shells are 1977 Gretsch USA and sizes (and cases) are 13, 15, 18, 24, 14.
    I custom-ordered the USA shells in Feb., 1977 and they were delivered in August of that year (very close to the date of Elvis' death)..........after 37 years I still love gigging with those drums.................see below:




    Thanks, Spaz............they do sound good for a middy kit.
    The small 14X14 floor tom is beautiful.............just a stand-out sound.



    Makes sense! Beautiful kit.
    Jesse

    1986 Tama Crestar - Lacquered Piano White
    2016 Roland TD-25K
    2015 Tama Starclassic B/B - Indigo Blue Sparkle

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta View Post
    Even with that, I think the price tag is why the line didn't survive. Looking on ebay a new 6 piece is priced right around $950 (3 up 1 down), while a new 5 piece Mars series is right at $600 (1 up 2 down), a 6 piece Silverstar is about $800 (2 up 2 down) and my 6 piece M birch (3 up 1 down) was $700.

    They might have put to many nice features to compete with the mid range. $250 is a big difference between the identical sized M Birch, but maybe the Epic is genuinely is a $250 better kit. When advertised as intermediate, its price appears high. Maybe it was a marketing fault, and it should have been the kit that closes the gap between intermediate and professional. The cheapest professional kit, rather than the most expensive intermediate?


    The epic series is definitely one of the prettiest intermediate kits in the last 10 years. Don't get me wrong, beautiful drums, I almost traded one of my favorite kits to get an Epic bop kit. I'm just trying to come up with an explanation to why it didn't make it.
    Your thoughts make sense to me............especially the marketing strategy.
    My Epics do have some very nice features -- my favorite is the mini-keystone lugs..............beautiful and symbolic.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaosotis View Post
    Beautiful kit.
    Thank you...........they sound better every year they age.
    I have had many sound-men ask me about the great bass drum tone.
    A conventional 14X24.
    Gretsch USA & Zildjian
    (What Else Would I Ever Need ?)


  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by MDK View Post
    Sometimes I hit some drums and it's like WOW those are nice, other times it's like Ehhhh I have heard better. You will know it when you hear it.


    I think you can probably change the Ehhhh sound into the WOW sound with different heads and a little tuning.

    I have heard "top of the line" sets that sounded (IMHO) like crap, and low level sets that sounded (again, IMHO) great.

    As I've posted many times before, we used to pass this band in the night that had a drummer who had 1 of the best sounding (again IMHO) drum sets I've ever heard. My opinion was backed up by more than a few drummers that were familiar with that band. They were U.S. Mercury drums, which, if I'm not mistaken, are made of wood 1 step above cardboard.

    It's not the drums, it's the person who tunes said drums.

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