Very angry Craigslist post

[Warren Wright]

^I keep telling my band to do a tip jar but they wont do it.


maybe we should make a thread poll... how many bands use a tip jar...

Every band that Ive worked in ( and the list is long ) had a Tip Jar - - - both bands I work for now have a Tip Jar . . . why would your band not want one - unless giving your customers a chance to reward you for a job well done and making some extra cash is abhorrent and totally repulsive??

[wired]

When I played lead guitar in my father's country/honky tonk band. We use to play this retirement old folks center once a month. We did it for free just for the band practice and to give back to the community. They would advertise it in the local paper as the big dance.

And it was a real pleasure watching all the couples waltzing across the floor. It was like they were gliding across the floor. And overtime we got to know these people and they really liked us as well. But while we were doing it for free. With only a tip jar.
The retirement center was charging people like 10.00 dollars a head and not paying us anything at all. Then one time my dad's girlfriend who played bass brought some friends and they tried to charge her and her friends even after she told them that she's with the band. We went ahead and paid the cover for her and her friends then later we announced this will be the last show that we'll do here. And that was it. My father hasn't played a gig again..and that was like 4 years ago.

But yeah that's what I mean by unappreciative. I don't mean to slam free gigs if you are happy to do them. But it does come a point in time when you are being exploited and that's what I meant by standing up to that sort of crap and putting an end to it.

[Pearl MCX Man]

This was an interesting one in the musicians section:

" quit playing for free!! !!! boycot open mics and jams..
[What] are some of you thinking?
Playing for free!! Open mics and open stage jams...
You're not going get noticed, you're not going to get discovered playing for free...
All your doing is giving bar owners the right not to pay musicians for our hard work, time and effort.. feeding you a line.Saying if you can bring a crowed next time,we'll pay you the next time.Bringing in people to drink in their bar isn't our responsibility and shouldn't be. If they don't have the customers to begin with? That should tell you something right off the batt..
Its time to stop the bull!!! You want to play for free? Do it Downtown on the mall., a d quit! Ruining the .music scene like you have already. Go back where you came from and do it there. If you want to play for a beer and a shot, and a tap on the shoulder great! Go home...
The music scene sucks here because of you people.
I for one! Want to get paid for my efforts and talent and time...
Boycott open mic and stages....."

I am surprised the Moderator let this post through cause it breaks most of the rules of bad language. I have seen members banned or warned for less than that including myself. The forum must be a changing.

[marko138]

Although the delivery of the message was rather crude and for the most part unacceptable, I agree with his general concept. What really highlights this issue are the ads that you see on CL and other sites asking musicians to provide free entertainment for planned events. It's always couched in "get exposure, work for tips, etc.). Not acceptable. Those that do provide their time and talent for free do in fact exacerbate the situation.

This 100%.

Don't play for free. At least not often. And don't sell tickets or pay to play.

[inthpktplayer]

I am surprised the Moderator let this post through cause it breaks most of the rules of bad language. I have seen members banned or warned for less than that including myself. The forum must be a changing.

That's what you get from this thread?

[Pearl MCX Man]

Yes itpp, I do even though it did not come out of the poster's mouth it is still vulgar language for this supposedly family oriented forum as there are kids on this forum.

[Cdeleone]

Yes itpp, I do even though it did not come out of the poster's mouth it is still vulgar language for this supposedly family oriented forum as there are kids on this forum.

well, I just copied and pasted and the site [starred] out what was inappropriate. How many kids are on this website?? If so, I'm sure they've seen/heard much worse than some blocked out words. Jeesh

[8beat]

And don't sell tickets or pay to play.

I am struggling with this pay to play idea.

There are some musicians that I would like to jam with. It is not a gig or a show, but I would like the use of a stage, and maybe we could get a little louder than we can get at home. And we might like to buy food or drinks, and not have to clean up after ourselves. So I'm thinking of giving a venue a little money to let us use their stage one night when they are not likely to be busy.

I guess if I rent a studio then it is OK. But renting a venue is not OK. That's my dilemma.

[Warren Wright]

Well, I have to side with Pearl MXC Man - I think the "Message" was worthy of discussion - I do Not think the "language" was appropriate for this Forum.

[Warren Wright]

In Oklahoma City, Oklahoma - back in the 70s and 80s, any club that could seat 50 or more people had a "Live Band" playing at least on Friday and Saturday nights and over 15 clubs in the area had a Live Band playing 5 nights or more per week and Sunday was the Only day for Jam Sessions and there was only 4 or 5 at that, and the pay ran from 50 bucks per man to 125 bucks per man, depending on the venue and the quality of the band etc.

Right now, there are fewer than 10 bars in Okc and the surrounding towns that hire "Live Bands" -(Population of Okc and the close surrounding towns is 1,310,000 people) - But, on any given night there is at least 2 to 4 clubs hosting "Jam Sessions" - and musicians flock to them.
Since I left there in the late 80s, I can only shake my head at the "idea of Jamming instead of getting paid for playing" and why the players seem oblivious to the fact that they are providing club owners with "Free Music" - and those clubs do pack in the "paying crowd".

[Pearl MCX Man]

well, I just copied and pasted and the site ***'d out what was inappropriate. How many kids are on this website?? If so, I'm sure they've seen/heard much worse than some blocked out words. Jeesh

Don't jump on me man. It is not the idea of if the kids on this site have heard that kind of language or not it is the rules man. You lucky Drummer has not seen that yet and I am surprised cause I know he would agree with me.

[js218]

Played in a 4 piece band back in the 70s, 4 nights 9 pm until 2 am and I was guaranteed $250 which in the 70s was excellent money. Never performed for free.. .

Jim

[Ricardo]

A year ago we were asked to play on a bill of about 5 bands, for free, but we're promised travel, drinks and food for the night.
We got nothing.
The older, more well known band, who played last, did, and we felt a bit cheated :(

Just a bit.

[Cdeleone]

I am struggling with this pay to play idea.


I guess if I rent a studio then it is OK. But renting a venue is not OK. That's my dilemma.

I like the idea of renting out a venue and charging per head. Especially if you're holding an Album Release party or something. I think it's an interesting concept

[veafer]

The current band that I play in consists of older, more mature, ain't in our right mind kinda folks. We started to play together just to have some fun once or twice a month. Actually came together pretty good. We are very, very selective as to where and when we play out due to the fact that because of jobs, and age, it is impractical to play out more than twice a month. Most of the gigs we do are to local fests and benefits. Usually no charge for a good cause, but that will usually include free food and drink. The local fests, we do get paid, but not as much as a nighttime bar gig. Usually about $250-$300 for a couple of hours. The funny part is that we have become "In Demand", so to speak. The local bars want us to play, and we can get around $800.00 for a 4 hour gig. More for "special occasions", such as a Christmas Party or New years Eve.

That being said, I can understand somebody being "upset" about their living being taken away by "freebie's". I, myself actually felt that way in the 70's and 80's when Disco was so popular and every bar and dance joint went to recorded music. Even the "Holiday Inn" gigs became a thing of the past, for the most part. Cost alot of mid-level musicans their livelihood. Not the high dollar bands, but the ones that made a living playing the regional circuit was just about buried. You just can't imagine the competition to get a local gig when that happened.

Playing to have fun is great. I would do it as much as I could. But I do have a problem with the local place that charges a $10.00 cover to see "live music" on an open mic night. If it's free and open to the public, that's great. But to do it just to make money off the music at the expense of other working musicians, well, thats a shame.

My point is, I guess, is that each of us, as musicians, have a choice as to what we do. Me? I would not play "for free" if it would be to the benefit of a bar owners pocket. For a good, legit cause that has been vetted by someone I can trust, not a problem.

Sorry, one of my longer rants.

[NewTricks]

. We don't spend hours and hours year after year working on our chops,learning songs and rehearsing..paying for gear,rehearsal space and everything else..Only to be ripped off..

First, how are you getting ripped off? Is there some kind of misrepresentation about getting paid?

Second, we do spend hours and hours year after year working on our chops,learning songs and rehearsing..paying for gear,rehearsal space and everything else to take a loss. You can kid yourself but if you do the math, it's just an expensive time consuming hobby.....so you'd better really love doing it

Jam nights don't draw people coming in off the streets to be entertained by bands. The crowds are mostly musician types looking to have fun, meet other players and jam a bit.

[wired]

Well feel free to disagree.. Like I mentioned in the same post you quoted me from the very same point that you just made. That it is cool to meet new players at these open mic nights. But as I and others mentioned as well there are club owners that take advantage of this.
They expect you to bring the crowd.They expect you to do all the promotion,They have all kinds of schemes and expect you to do all work. That's a fact..you can go argue with somebody else all you like..You want to let them dictate to you how it's going to be well that's fine by me..More power to you.

Yes we buy all the gear because we love it.. We spend years honing our craft for the same reason. But there are bands like "Emerald City" that make like 2 grand a show..that's doing the right way! And they are just a coverband with a horn section and a bunch of samples to boot.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~
How I know they get paid that much..was I use to play in a coverband called "Soul Vacation" and we opened for them one time. And the club owner told us how much he paid them. They have even played the White house! But my friend who is a guitar virtuoso was telling me that a few years back Emerald city was a very crappy band. But they just stuck with it and got better and better..and Now he only wish he could land a gig with them. and this guy's an awesome player.

But the moral of my long rant is simply this... There are bands all across America just like Emerald City that charge out the wazzoo and you know what? They are getting it!
Now you want to tell me that as a musician we should just accept no compensation for our time & expenses..
Gee I wish the local dentist/lawyer/hospital felt that way!
Granted not everybody can afford to pay this much. But to always play these free shows one right after another with no paid gigs while the club is making good money?!?. If I was in your band,I'd tell you to talk the hand!

[drummer]

well, I just copied and pasted and the site [starred] out what was inappropriate. How many kids are on this website?? If so, I'm sure they've seen/heard much worse than some blocked out words. Jeesh

It is fact not permitted here. Yea, a lot of kids know those words and even talk that way but the forum was set up to be family friendly so I hope you can respect that effort. I amended the original post and it still reads fine. Thanks everyone for your understanding. - Carry on.

[marko138]

I am struggling with this pay to play idea.

There are some musicians that I would like to jam with. It is not a gig or a show, but I would like the use of a stage, and maybe we could get a little louder than we can get at home. And we might like to buy food or drinks, and not have to clean up after ourselves. So I'm thinking of giving a venue a little money to let us use their stage one night when they are not likely to be busy.

I guess if I rent a studio then it is OK. But renting a venue is not OK. That's my dilemma.

Not exactly what I mean by that. I mean taking "pre-sale" tickets and HAVING to sell a predetermined number of them then handing over the cash while keeping little or none of that cash. That's pay to play and it shouldn't be done by any band ever.

Rent a venue. Put on a show. In fact, what you're talking about is exactly what I'd recommend instead of pay to play. Put the show on yourself. Rent the venue. Determine a cover charge. Play. Have fun. Don't make someone else a pile of cash while you do all the work.

[nubdrummer]

I disagree with the ranter's comment that it's not the band's responsibility to bring people to the bar. Think of it from the bar owner's perspective: if the bar draws a crowd on it's own, why would he pay a band? His goal is to make money and it only makes sense for him to pay a band if the band is going to increase his revenue to the point that he will still make a profit after paying them. My band never plays for free except for the occasional benefit, but the bar owners makes sure it's understood that we need to bring people in order to continue to play at their venue. We don't make a lot of money and we don't do it for money. For strictly economic reasons, it wouldn't makes sense to work from about 5PM to Midnight hauling gear, setting up, playing 3 sets and breaking down for about $80 a man. We do it because it's fun, and the minute it stops being fun, we stop doing it.

[Cdeleone]

Not exactly what I mean by that. I mean taking "pre-sale" tickets and HAVING to sell a predetermined number of them then handing over the cash while keeping little or none of that cash. That's pay to play and it shouldn't be done by any band ever.

Rent a venue. Put on a show. In fact, what you're talking about is exactly what I'd recommend instead of pay to play. Put the show on yourself. Rent the venue. Determine a cover charge. Play. Have fun. Don't make someone else a pile of cash while you do all the work.

Out here in Denver - at the larger venues (and some of the smaller ones) you are much better of selling a ton of pre-sale tickets if you ever want to play there again. If we sold 100 pre-sale, the venue was ecstatic and would invite you to come back. If you didn't sell any or a small amount, you weren't invited back. yes, it sucked, but that is the only way to get a good reputation with the venues.

[imperialstar15]

I don't think it is the musicians job to bring in customers, but on the other hand, why should a bar spend their money (thus spending their financial rescources they could be using on the bar) on someone that isn't helping their business?

[marko138]

Out here in Denver - at the larger venues (and some of the smaller ones) you are much better of selling a ton of pre-sale tickets if you ever want to play there again. If we sold 100 pre-sale, the venue was ecstatic and would invite you to come back. If you didn't sell any or a small amount, you weren't invited back. yes, it sucked, but that is the only way to get a good reputation with the venues.

That's common here too, but you can buck the trend. My band did. We did far better than most local bands, especially bands selling tickets. Sure there were a couple venues we didn't play but I find that ticket sales also come with "all ages" venues. I'd rather not play there anyway.

[kay-gee]

Now for the Sad Truth...

Live music is becoming a paradigm. It just is not the scene it was in times past nor will it ever be. There are many reasons for this. Too many to discuss here, but the reality remains, that music is an industry where the supply far outweighs the demand. Just like oil. It gluts, and the price plummets. From the 1920's to the 80's or so, pro musicians wouldn't even concieve of playing for free. Venues wouldn't expect them to. There wasn't Karaoke, DJ's VJ's and the rest. The people on here who actually eke out a living from music should consider themselves blessed. They are becoming fewer. If money is your thing, there are a million ways to make it faster and easier than music. I wouldn't be too upset with the bars and clubs. One day soon they will be GONE and only the most famous ones will remain.

all the best...

[NewTricks]

There are bands all across America just like Emerald City that charge out the wazzoo and you know what? They are getting it!
Now you want to tell me that as a musician we should just accept no compensation for our time & expenses..

I certainly didn't or would tell you how to run your band. That's you job and those are your decisions.

Bands like Emerald City will get paid well because they earn it. They are doing things that the other bands are not. This is basic free market economy 101 and the venues aren't to blame.

Simply being a musician doesn't entitle us to anything. You have got to be way more than a player to get paid well.

There are talented people from all across the spectrum (musicians, artists, chefs, construction workers) but if they can't market themselves effectively, they will go nowhere (financially).

The chef not only needs to cook, he needs to know the marketplace or work with someone that does.

I don't think it is the musicians job to bring in customers,.....

That is their only job