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Thread: Why I Like/Dislike Certain Cymbals

  1. #1

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    Default Why I Like/Dislike Certain Cymbals

    The language we use to explain our sensual experiences requires quite an effort to describe that which is, in truth, indescribable. Does "sour" adequately describe the taste of a lemon? Does "yellow" clearly delineate that color? And do all of us mean exactly the same thing when we use descriptors? Without doubt, all of us have a good general sense of commonality when using words to describe senses, but it is normally the realm of artists to nudge us into seeing more deeply the nuances of our words.

    This is a long winded way of saying that you may not hear what I hear, but I'll use the best words in my limited vocabulary to explain what I'm about to relate about a recent discovery I've made about the way cymbals sound to me, and why certain sounds, notes, and frequencies cause me to either like them or not.

    I'm calling the observation I've made as "frequency domination." What that means is that I've come to understand that cymbals that I tend to reject as "unmusical" have certain frequencies (or, call them "notes") that excessively dominate over others. In other words, in listening to a cymbal's overall frequency spread, the ones I dislike are producing a very discernible frequency (or note, as the harmonics of said frequency are often present, as well) that I can actually pinpoint amidst all the others. This phenomenon, for example, would be akin to listening to a piano or guitar chord in which only one particular note is louder than the rest, causing the chord to sound unbalanced and unharmonic.

    For example, this cymbal has a "B" as it's dominant note, evident especially in it's ride pattern demonstration:

    http://heartbeatdistributors.com/wp-...ntage-Ride.mp3

    This one has a dominant C#:

    http://537.af2.myftpupload.com/wp-co...-19_-Ride1.mp3

    Compare those with this ride, which, while having a few accentuated frequencies, have no dominant notes, but a balanced, full-band response:

    http://537.af2.myftpupload.com/wp-co...edium-Ride.mp3

    (Please note in the above samples: pay attention to the ride pattern response, as opposed to the clear, dominant note that lingers after the cymbal is allowed to rest. Sometimes these notes correspond, sometimes not. I'm not certain exactly how the "resting" note corresponds to or interacts with the ride pattern dominant note.)

    Does any of this coincide with any of your observations?

    GeeDeeEmm

  2. #2

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    Well, what I listen for in ride cymbals in particular is that the ping is A) just a bit above the wash, and B) more tah and not too bright. However, what you're talking about is also relevant. I really liked the first (It's the only one I could hear), but that "B" overtone is kinda offputting. It just sounds slightly off and not full.

    I agree completely with what you're saying, but I think a ride also needs the perfect balance of weight and hammering.

    I wonder if what you're talking about is caused by mishammering?
    Tama Swingstar 3 piece 1993 (refinished wine red)
    Ludwig Breakbeats (Azure Sparkle)
    1964 Ludwig Supra
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  3. #3

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    now is this mostly about ride cymbals or crashed too?

    Because for a ride cymbal in my rock band I like a super dry ride more on the pingy side. But for my crashes I still love a bright bold washy sound. I dislike the super thick heavy ping pang crashes.

  4. #4

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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Can you say that in English?

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Can you say that in English?
    I think he may mean he isn't too fond of that gongy overtone that seems to accompany many heavy crash cymbals.

    Dropping the sticks and rushing to the dinner table can get tiresome.

  6. #6

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    I like to do this thing I call the thumb nail test. I would hold a cymbal horizontally on the tip of my left index finger and then with my right thumbnail kinda "pluck" the edge of the cymbal. As you do this hold it your ear and listen to all the notes and phasing. Either it will be pleasing or it won't. If I hear a a sound that makes me tingle, I buy the cymbal.

    all the best...

  7. #7

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    A lot of the overtones disappear when you're playing and with other instruments. I've had cymbals that I thought I didn't care for that much until I heard them in context. Hard for me to tell just by itself. At a minimum I set a new cymbal up up with a kit and play. Feel, however, is something that is either there or not right from the first couple of strokes. My shop has a 6-month return policy for cymbals. Play it for a few months and if you're not completely satisfied with the sound or feel, you can return it for another cymbal or get a refund. Makes it super easy to dial in on the right sound.
    Last edited by G-man; 12-03-2015 at 07:22 PM.

  8. #8

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    you guys are funny.

    Any I completely agree G-man once the cymbals are in a full musical environment sometimes you hear them different than when played alone.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpazApproved View Post
    you guys are funny.

    Any I completely agree G-man once the cymbals are in a full musical environment sometimes you hear them different than when played alone.
    Yep. And true of drums and most musical instruments.

    all the best...

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by crispycritters View Post
    I think he may mean he isn't too fond of that gongy overtone that seems to accompany many heavy crash cymbals.

    Dropping the sticks and rushing to the dinner table can get tiresome.
    My points were directed toward ride cymbals, specifically, but apply as well to crash cymbals. The only difference is that the crash cymbal's presence is here and gone, but the ride cymbals can produce that annoying note over the course of an entire song. But, I think you may be right. The more that dominant note resembles a gong, the more I dislike it. Good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by kay-gee View Post
    I like to do this thing I call the thumb nail test. I would hold a cymbal horizontally on the tip of my left index finger and then with my right thumbnail kinda "pluck" the edge of the cymbal. As you do this hold it your ear and listen to all the notes and phasing. Either it will be pleasing or it won't. If I hear a a sound that makes me tingle, I buy the cymbal.

    all the best...
    Interesting. Never tried that, but I will.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-man View Post
    A lot of the overtones disappear when you're playing and with other instruments.
    Well, I wouldn't say they "disappear," exactly, but they are frequently masked by the sheer volume of a band, and can sometimes be cancelled out by negating frequencies (think of the process used in the Bose "noise cancelling" headphones, which are, in fact, frequency cancelling.)

    Nonetheless, when the negating frequencies are not present, one is still left with a note-dominant cymbal.

    (One further note, guys - don't take all this philosophizing about cymbals too seriously. I don't. This is just an exercise in trying to more clearly delineate exactly what it is that attracts me to a cymbal. Your results may vary. But it's still fun, and I'm finding all of your responses quite useful in narrowing this point down a little. Thanks for the input.)

    GeeDeeEmm

  11. #11

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    I like cymbals.

    Acoustic & Electronic:
    Pearl Prestige World Series WLX 1988
    Tama Swingstar 1983
    Tama Superstar Hyper-Drive (Birch) 2007
    Ludwig Acrolite Snare 1976
    Ludwig Supraphonic 6.5x14" 2021
    Pearl Sensitone Elite Aluminum 5.5" and 6.5" Snare
    Pearl COB Custom Deluxe [Gladstone] (75-76) Snare
    Love Drum Co. Hammered Steel 5.5" Snare
    Roland TD-1KV

    Paiste
    Accent 8"

    Paiste Signature:
    6", 10" Splash
    14" Dark Crisp Hi-Hats
    14" Sound Edge Hi-Hats
    16", 17", 18",19", 20" Full Crash
    22" Symphonic Med-Heavy (use as a Ride)

    Paiste Formula 602:
    22" Formula 602 Modern Essentials Ride

    Paiste 2oo2:
    22" Ride
    16" Crash
    8",10" Splash

    Paiste 2oo2 Big Beat:
    15" Hi-Hats
    19", 20", 21" Big Beat Multifunctional

    Paiste Sound Formula:
    16" Crash
    20" Full Ride (Frankenstein)

    Paiste Twenty:
    16" China

    Paiste Alpha (original Swiss made):
    12" Splash

    Paiste PST7:
    Medium
    16", 18" Crash
    20" Ride
    14" Hi-Hats

    Sabian:
    XS20 18" China
    AA 14" Fusion Hi-Hats


  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by G-man View Post
    A lot of the overtones disappear when you're playing and with other instruments. I've had cymbals that I thought I didn't care for that much until I heard them in context. Hard for me to tell just by itself. At a minimum I set a new cymbal up up with a kit and play. Feel, however, is something that is either there or not right from the first couple of strokes. My shop has a 6-month return policy for cymbals. Play it for a few months and if you're not completely satisfied with the sound or feel, you can return it for another cymbal or get a refund. Makes it super easy to dial in on the right sound.
    That's very timely. I was just saying the same thing about my Wuhans. If any cymbal has a "gongy" overtone, it's Wuhans. In the context of live music, it seems to actually give them a fuller sound. Acoustics are a lot like fluid dynamics; what seems logical is not always the way it is. One thing is certain, if it sounds good, it is good.

    I've also heard that new cymbals will change tone or "break in" during the first months of use. I assume it has to do with the internal stress & forces seeking equilibrium. May or may not be true.
    -Brian

    "Too many crappy used drum stuff to list"

    Play the SONG......not the DRUMS!!!

    "I think that feeling is a lot more important than technique. It's all very well doing a triple paradiddle - but who's going to know you've done it? If you play technically you sound like everybody else. It's being original that counts." ~ John Bonham

  13. #13

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    I tend to avoid cymbals with very dominant low-pitched notes. The humming sound gets annoying. In my experience Zildjian has the most of these cymbals that slip through.
    Now, for splashes, the pitch does matter a lot to me because I use 4 of them, so if there's a clear interval between each I can play melodically. But they decay so fast that it works, and plus I think that's a bit different than the point you were going with.
    I also don't mind gongy overtones unless they are very obviously pitched as I said earlier in the post. Some gongs are very washy and do not have a definite pitch, so those types of sounds are perfectly fine to me.

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