Good Sound

[Ricardo]

This rant is a follow-up to the Ear Buds thread.................one of the replies (with which I totally agreed) was "I like to hear good sound".
Another stated that a good IEM pair is $300 minimum.


During the 70s, I worked for a major sound reinforcement company.
I was a sound & light roadie and learned how to create wonderful sound.
And still today, I have a lot of trouble settling for less...........and we shouldn't.

Over many decades Ma Bell/AT&T developed the land-line telephone that was an awesome piece of telecommunications equipment. Now we all have the convenience of the cell phone but the price we pay for that convenience is crappy sound with unwanted delay.................I hate cell phones............really.

Now comes the cell phone generation that thinks crappy sound is OK...........I hear it in youtube videos............every ipad and iphone................most desktops. I bought a new 4K TV recently..............the sound is average, at best. You need to buy a "sound-bar" if you want to enhance the sound............no thanks, it isn't much better.
I prefer to run my TV audio through an 800 watt Denon system I have in the living room -- it is wired like pro audio (meaning the signal is split before assigning it to a specific speaker) and it is gorgeous.

So last Saturday I am asked to wear these cheapo ear buds for my gig and they sound like the rest of this cell-phone-generation junk.

I am told good buds are at least $300.
For $300, why not just buy a JBL slant-back and crank it up ?
I would be much happier.

There is a club in town that still runs the sound old-school as I prefer it.
Every time we play there, people say, "wow...........you guys sound good".
Well............high-wattage amps and 15" speakers still have their place.
You have to move some air before you will get good sound.............most people can make mid-range sound good...............that is what humans easily hear best.
It takes a little knowledge and talent along with good equipment to get the highs and (especially) the lows to be heard correctly.

Another club that I got to play only twice was shut down two years ago.............I really miss that place...............best club sound system I ever saw (and heard).

A small room off of the stage had a rack with 12 Crown 1000-watt amps.
Nine of those were assigned to the subs.............the other three easily carried the mids and highs. Yes............the system could overpower you and knock everyone down..............but at the right level of enjoyable volume, it was a majestic example of outstanding audio.

I've always been a big fan, and in awe, of a great PA system.
In my sound education, a great PA system had two jobs --- MAINS and MONITORS.
Rant over....................

[jedi]

The local casino has a great sound system but the hire fools to run it . The subwoofers are set up under the stage . When I hit the kick drum the vibrations travel up the vocal mics and you get this awful hollow feedback loop ! As soon as I'm ready to count off the first song I reach over and turn off the powered speaker they use for a drum monitor . The mix in that thing changes from song to song as the idiot messes with the board . Sometimes I get the vocals really loud and over saturated with reverb! Other times he runs the snare drum really loud through it that it hurts ! So I just turn it off and get on with the gig . I dread doing that gig .
We don't run anything through our P.A. but vocals . No drums or guitar , only vocals . The places are small enough that we can get away with it . I'm so use to not having a monitor that when I do a festival gig or something like that I just tell the sound guy to turn mine off !
I recently bought a pair of the Shure SE112 in ears . They were on sale for $50 so I took a chance . I like them . I've not tried them on a gig , I don't think I would use ANY in ears on a gig anyway . But I did find that you need to experiment with the different size sleeves that come with the ear buds . The better the isolation the better the sound .
I've had different monitor set ups throughout my career as a drummer . Some were great some not so . The technology is there . I just haven't found a guy competent enough to use it properly . Seems like nowadays anyone can call themselves a "soundman" .
I feel your pain brother .
Rudy .

[rickthedrummer]

I remember my 1st couple of bands ('61-'62). We had no monitors and the singer sang through a Fender amp.

The good old days!!

[SunDog]

Wearing in ear is for hearing protection as well as monitoring. It let's you set the volume in your ears to a reasonable level while keeping out stage volume. Bad ones are better for your ears than a slant 15" with a horn and good ones even sound pretty good, but it'll cost ya! It's the wave of the future man. You can ride it or be run over by it, but you can't stop it.

[jedi]

Wearing in ear is for hearing protection as well as monitoring. It let's you set the volume in your ears to a reasonable level while keeping out stage volume. Bad ones are better for your ears than a slant 15" with a horn and good ones even sound pretty good, but it'll cost ya! It's the wave of the future man. You can ride it or be run over by it, but you can't stop it.

Or you can opt out on both as I have .

[EddieV]

The local casino has a great sound system but the hire fools to run it . The subwoofers are set up under the stage . When I hit the kick drum the vibrations travel up the vocal mics and you get this awful hollow feedback loop ! As soon as I'm ready to count off the first song I reach over and turn off the powered speaker they use for a drum monitor . The mix in that thing changes from song to song as the idiot messes with the board . Sometimes I get the vocals really loud and over saturated with reverb! Other times he runs the snare drum really loud through it that it hurts ! So I just turn it off and get on with the gig . I dread doing that gig .
We don't run anything through our P.A. but vocals . No drums or guitar , only vocals . The places are small enough that we can get away with it . I'm so use to not having a monitor that when I do a festival gig or something like that I just tell the sound guy to turn mine off !
I recently bought a pair of the Shure SE112 in ears . They were on sale for $50 so I took a chance . I like them . I've not tried them on a gig , I don't think I would use ANY in ears on a gig anyway . But I did find that you need to experiment with the different size sleeves that come with the ear buds . The better the isolation the better the sound .
I've had different monitor set ups throughout my career as a drummer . Some were great some not so . The technology is there . I just haven't found a guy competent enough to use it properly . Seems like nowadays anyone can call themselves a "soundman" .
I feel your pain brother .
Rudy .

I am ROTFLMAO because I know what you are talking about...and know EXACTLY who you are talking about. (he's a nice guy too....did you know he is a drummer?)

I actually run a seperate mic into my kic and use an overhead to make my own "mix" in my system - blending it with the horrible mix I get from the main board.

As bad as the monitor mix is...the main mix isn't too bad.



This pic was taken there and we are there on the 13th next month.

[jedi]

[QUOTE=EddieV;679281]I am ROTFLMAO because I know what you are talking about...and know EXACTLY who you are talking about. (he's a nice guy too....did you know he is a drummer?)

I actually run a seperate mic into my kic and use an overhead to make my own "mix" in my system - blending it with the horrible mix I get from the main board.

As bad as the monitor mix is...the main mix isn't too bad.

See...I knew I wasn't crazy !!Thanks for chiming in Eddie !
I know the guy but I blanked out on his name . Everytime we play there he calls me up to be there early so he can get a free drum lesson from me... LOL !! I like him ok but he's not a soundman . There was a guy before him and he was very good . I can't remember his name now but he's a bass player too .
The thing is that we get feedback ALL NIGHT LONG in that place ! Even with my monitor off I can still hear how bad he's messing with everybody else's monitor mix . Our bass player starts yelling at the guy from across the stage !
Man you're going to be there on the 13th of next month ! I'll try to make it up there to see you . I have a gig that night too but we're done by 11:30 . Might get to catch your last set .
Rudy .

[kay-gee]

Electricity killed music!!!

all the best...

[Ricardo]

Wearing in ear is for hearing protection as well as monitoring. It let's you set the volume in your ears to a reasonable level while keeping out stage volume. Bad ones are better for your ears than a slant 15" with a horn and good ones even sound pretty good, but it'll cost ya! It's the wave of the future man. You can ride it or be run over by it, but you can't stop it.

First sentence = true.
Second sentence = we don't have a problem with stage volume.
Third sentence = an untrue generalization.
Fourth and fifth sentences = the same thing was said about the metric system in the 1980s...............we refused.

Nothing personal, I just disagree.
If that is your preference, cool for you.
I play '77 Gretsch USA Customs...........they sound as good as anything you can buy today..............and I'll continue to get great monitor sound through old-school methods.

[CollinCo.Drummer]

Our band does turnkey PA at every gig we can. Some venues have decent mains so we will run our mixer through them, but we almost always use our own monitors, and every member has their own tried and true setup. Digital consoles let you store your configuration for easier and faster sound check. New venue? once you get the sound dialed in, save a new configuration with the venue name and you are that much closer the next time you gig there. I like the Electro Voice ELX112p 115p and the whole ETX line. These are real wood cabinets with a great amp and great drivers. they always sound good.

[funkyruss]

Electricity killed music!!!

all the best...

I thought Muddy Waters invented electricity!

[slinky]

the whole inner ear thing seems like an acquired taste that takes time to get use to. I can't stand anything in my ears when i play. Whenever I get to record something one of the first things I think about are the headphones. The last time was a little better though because we each had our own volume control panels for all the other instruments to kind of customize a mix.

[SunDog]

First sentence = true.
Second sentence = we don't have a problem with stage volume.
Third sentence = an untrue generalization.
Fourth and fifth sentences = the same thing was said about the metric system in the 1980s...............we refused.

Nothing personal, I just disagree.
If that is your preference, cool for you.
I play '77 Gretsch USA Customs...........they sound as good as anything you can buy today..............and I'll continue to get great monitor sound through old-school methods.

There is nothing to disagree about. My ears ring 24/7, 365. I know what in ear monitors are for and it's hearing protection. If you think headsets hurt your ears the same as a 350 watt powered monitor ..... well your just wrong. For all the talk around here about sound quality, well, the professional in ears cost two or three thousand. I bet those sound good. And I bet that Maroon Five and One Direction never end up with tinnitus like Pearl Jam and Metallica.

[Ricardo]

There is nothing to disagree about. My ears ring 24/7, 365.

Mine don't -- that is why we disagree.

[EddieV]

I am ROTFLMAO because I know what you are talking about...and know EXACTLY who you are talking about. (he's a nice guy too....did you know he is a drummer?)

I actually run a seperate mic into my kic and use an overhead to make my own "mix" in my system - blending it with the horrible mix I get from the main board.

As bad as the monitor mix is...the main mix isn't too bad.

See...I knew I wasn't crazy !!Thanks for chiming in Eddie !
I know the guy but I blanked out on his name . Everytime we play there he calls me up to be there early so he can get a free drum lesson from me... LOL !! I like him ok but he's not a soundman . There was a guy before him and he was very good . I can't remember his name now but he's a bass player too .
The thing is that we get feedback ALL NIGHT LONG in that place ! Even with my monitor off I can still hear how bad he's messing with everybody else's monitor mix . Our bass player starts yelling at the guy from across the stage !
Man you're going to be there on the 13th of next month ! I'll try to make it up there to see you . I have a gig that night too but we're done by 11:30 . Might get to catch your last set .
Rudy .

I actually unplug their powered monitor and run the feed into my board. Adjust what I can there. It quiets things down a little...and I have told my bandmates, who don't use in-ears, that the monitor mix changes and fades in and out.

One thing that's important for me..I sing. A lot....I need a good monitor system (ESPECIALLY there) when it's so dayum loud you can't think.

I've played thousands of venues.....of them all...this is the worst stage sound ever and it has nothing to do with acoustics.

I'm trying to find a video I took of the room behind the stage - it was vibrating so badly from those subs under the stage that you could almost see the nails coming out of the sheetrock on the walls.

When I find it ...I'll post it.

Lastly....they need to get rid of that TV by the soundboard. (Ahem)

[SunDog]

Mine don't -- that is why we disagree.

How could they? You play an occasional gig on the steps of some building? I play casinos, festivals, and opening spots for national acts. I have contracts signed through the end of summer. So you don't get in-ear monitoring? You don't play enough gigs to need it anyway. You're the one who posted the quasi question/I'm old and I don't get it thread? Maybe try to digest the information you've gotten instead of grasping for responses that validate your own opinions.

[Ricardo]

You play an occasional gig on the steps of some building? I play casinos, festivals, and opening spots for national acts. I have contracts signed through the end of summer.

I think you are still confused.
Hey look............band #1 opening for a national act at a festival.
Band # 2 is a club band -- booked thru December.

[Texdrumr]

I'm probably the least qualified to respond here, but I definitely have had both good and bad experiences with monitoring systems at gigs.

First and foremost, I probably use IEM, 90% of the time. Occasionally, we play a gig with in-house sound and they only have a stage monitor for me. My experience with stage monitors are probably what you are referring to...from the penthouse all the way down to the outhouse. When it's good, it's freaking awesome. When it's bad, it's a miserable experience.

When we do our own sound (we have have a really really nice sound system), I always use IEM. Our sound woman (lead guitarist's wife) doesn't have a ton of experience running the system. Therefore, I'm rarely perfectly pleased with what I hear, but it gets me through.

So the bottom line is if I have to choose between sub-standard monitoring, be it IEM or stage monitor, the IEM seems the best of the worst (my opinion). BTW, I use Shure 425s with a wireless pack.

All this being said, if I could get outstanding quality sound from a stage monitor, I would without question pick the stage monitor over IEM. On those rare perfect nights, there is nothing that can replace the sounds and feeling of hearing everything perfectly. I LOVE being able to hear the ambient stage and crowd noise too. And that is something that is almost always limited with IEM, unless you run mics specifically for this.

Tex

[Texdrumr]

And for whatever it's worth, and because Ricardo got backed into a ridiculous corner over this...we've played big stages/festivals as openers and as headliners. And we've also played a plethora of crap-hole bars. I'm well-rounded like that.

Tex out

[funkyruss]

Shut 'er down!!!