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Thread: Some new questions

  1. #1

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    Default Some new questions

    Hey all.

    I asked a few timing questions back in January when i was messing around with a practice pad. (to improve my guitar playing) Anyways I ended up buying a second hand roland td1kv kit at the end of April as I quite enjoyed doing the stick work.

    I've been working through the Rod Morgenstein drumset musician book. (which I think is pretty good, at least works for how I like to learn things)

    I've gone through the 8th and quarter note sections a couple of times and have just started on the 16th note section. (I practice about 30 minutes a day so I'm not expecting to get through the book any time soon haha)

    The other day I decided to try playing along with some backing tracks for a bit of fun as I'd achieved my practice goal for the week and found that 75bpm (what id been going through the book at for 8ths and quarters)) with 8th notes is actually very slow even though to me it seemed quite reasonably paced. However a lot of the backing tracks on the drum set seem to be well over 120bpm. That seems quite frantic to me playing 8th notes even though the backing tracks don't seem that frantic so to speak. In honesty I cant play the snare and bass parts accurately that fast anyway if its not very simple.

    So after that wall of waffle my questions are.

    On fast songs should I actually be playing quarter note high hat rhythms rather than 8th note high hat. (unless its supposed to sound like a fast high hat piece)

    Is there a general rule of thumb (in most cases) of when you are most likely to be playing 1/4 1/8ths or 16th note high hat rhythm. In bpm terms.

    I obviously need to go back to the beginning of the book and work on building up the speed on the 8th and quarter note rhythms. What should I be aiming for setting my metronome. (as mentioned i went through last time set at 75bpm) I've only been playing on a drum kit since the end of April so I don't expect to be thinking in terms of playing like a drum god (in fact I have no plans to ever be one, I'm aiming for steady and not embarrassing myself if i ever play in front of someone other than myself.) Just a reasonable and sensible achievable goal please.

    Finally should I leave the 16th note section of the book alone until I'm quicker at the 8th note stuff.

    Thank you for reading.
    Last edited by Ulven; 06-19-2016 at 03:58 AM.

  2. #2

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    "On fast songs should I actually be playing quarter note high hat rhythms rather than 8th note high hat. (unless its supposed to sound like a fast high hat piece)"

    The type of note you use (eighth, quarter etc) is more (almost exclusively) dependent on what the music calls for (what you want it to sound like) than the tempo, yet, you may need to change the notes you play based on the tempo, if you cannot play fast enough, recognizing that it will sound different. If you need to change your ride/hi hat note values to accommodate speed shortcomings, you will want to adjust what you do with your left hand and bass to make the groove fit the music.


    "Is there a general rule of thumb (in most cases) of when you are most likely to be playing 1/4 1/8ths or 16th note high hat rhythm. In bpm terms."

    Nope. It all depends on how it's supposed to sound. Quarter notes and eight notes sound different and have a different feel. Pick any of your favorite songs and imagine if the drummer was playing his ride/hi hat either twice as fast or half as fast. How would that sound? Put on the headphones and try playing along. How does it sound?
    Life's too short to play the same solo twice. Improvise!

  3. #3

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    Ok thanks JS, I see what you mean about the feel.

    Anyone able to give me an idea of a realistically achievable BPM metronome setting for 8th note rhythms that I should be aiming for? I'm not interested in thrash, speed or death metal.

  4. #4

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    1/8 notes at 180 BPM would let you be able to play a lot of music.
    Life's too short to play the same solo twice. Improvise!

  5. #5

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    What Johnny said^^^^

    Around 140-150 BPM is about as fast as I typically play 1/8 notes on the hat, and that's mostly on Bluegrass type stuff where I play 1/4 notes on the bass and every off beat on the snare. I rarely play straight 1/16s on the type of music I play...it just doesn't call for it. Sometimes I revert to 1/4 notes on the hat and change up the bass pattern to give my wrists a break, especially 3hrs into a gig. Like Johnny said, it's entirely up to the type of music and song and what it calls for. Some songs even benefit from different patterns at different points in the song in order to generate a feel or emotion. My suggestion is to look for the underlying theme or feel of the song. It could be hard driving 1/4 notes, 1/8 notes, machine-like smooth 1/16 notes, swinging triplets, a shuffle, etc.). Identify that, then build your patterns to coordinate and express that feel.
    -Brian

    "Too many crappy used drum stuff to list"

    Play the SONG......not the DRUMS!!!

    "I think that feeling is a lot more important than technique. It's all very well doing a triple paradiddle - but who's going to know you've done it? If you play technically you sound like everybody else. It's being original that counts." ~ John Bonham

  6. #6

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    Thanks JS and N2. That gives me an idea on what to work towards.

    I've just tried that out and 130bpm seems to be about at the edge of my current limits. Its mostly my bass that's holding me back i think. (I tried out 16th note fills at that speed and they beyond my ability at this time as well)

    I'm positive I can improve on that though with a few more months behind a kit.

  7. #7

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    Find the fastest song you'd like to play with the fastest HH use and if you can't do the speed on the HH, cut that in half or try the ride instead. Then find the slowest song you'd like to play and double the HH. Eventually you'll find the HH/ride speed you can do comfortably. Do the same with shuffles/triplets. It's all about keeping the time with that hand. 32nd notes riding on a slow song will give you the feel of great speed which is not necessary on a slow song.
    SONOR 6 pc Special Edition 3007's red maple, old Pearl Brass 14x6 FF snare, Yamaha Tour Custom maple 8 pc., Tama 4 pc., honey amber B/B, Ludwig Supralite chrome 14x6.5 steel snare, Paiste, Saluda & Zildjian
    Loaned out Slingerland upgraded 4 pc 1963 black, wrapped maple + 14" Pearl birch FT
    The Almighty Speed King pedal, Speed Cobra, Sonor Single

    http://www.screaminmelinas.com
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  8. #8

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    While on the subject; how many of us use single strokes on the hats & ride? How many utilize a bounce (like a double stroke)? Sometimes I use the bounce, mostly on the ride, but its probably not bear often enough. Occasionally I'll use a double stroke on the hats for a shuffle, but it's hard to get volume out of it. I need to learn to use the tips of the sticks more and not the shank against the edge of the hats. I suppose with some stick control practice I could cut my effort in half, LOL.
    -Brian

    "Too many crappy used drum stuff to list"

    Play the SONG......not the DRUMS!!!

    "I think that feeling is a lot more important than technique. It's all very well doing a triple paradiddle - but who's going to know you've done it? If you play technically you sound like everybody else. It's being original that counts." ~ John Bonham

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by N2Bluz View Post
    While on the subject; how many of us use single strokes on the hats & ride? How many utilize a bounce (like a double stroke)? Sometimes I use the bounce, mostly on the ride, but its probably not bear often enough. Occasionally I'll use a double stroke on the hats for a shuffle, but it's hard to get volume out of it. I need to learn to use the tips of the sticks more and not the shank against the edge of the hats. I suppose with some stick control practice I could cut my effort in half, LOL.
    I play a lot of jazz so I bounce them quite a bit. In straight eighths or sixteenths I'm working on bouncing them for faster stuff.

    Also, to the original poster, it also pays to work on playing sixteenths on the hi hat with both hands and bringing your right down for the back beats. It's a good way to play the faster stuff. A good example is Foo Fighter's Everlong. Taylor Hawkins plays it that way.
    Life's too short to play the same solo twice. Improvise!

  10. #10

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    OP, I think you need to listen to some drummers on some songs you like rather than playing to a book and a metronome.
    Listen to a song and learn it.
    You can play the same drum pattern to 50% or 60% of the songs out there.
    4 on the hats and a boom whack boom boom whack. Bob's your uncle.
    If you need to double up on the hi hat for some reason you can use both hands on the hi hat and play the back beat with the right hand. That goes double for a fast shuffle.

    I think that learning to play a song is waaaaaay more important than learning rudiments. Rudiments are like reading a book about sex technique while remaining a virgin.
    Rudiments and clever book learning are for guys who already know how to play and want to tighten up their fills.
    Or guys that play snare in the marching band.
    It's like learning classy French to read a Camus novel, but not learning enough to order a cup of coffee.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlayOtters View Post
    OP, I think you need to listen to some drummers on some songs you like rather than playing to a book and a metronome.
    Listen to a song and learn it.
    You can play the same drum pattern to 50% or 60% of the songs out there.
    4 on the hats and a boom whack boom boom whack. Bob's your uncle.
    If you need to double up on the hi hat for some reason you can use both hands on the hi hat and play the back beat with the right hand. That goes double for a fast shuffle.

    I think that learning to play a song is waaaaaay more important than learning rudiments. Rudiments are like reading a book about sex technique while remaining a virgin.
    Rudiments and clever book learning are for guys who already know how to play and want to tighten up their fills.
    Or guys that play snare in the marching band.
    It's like learning classy French to read a Camus novel, but not learning enough to order a cup of coffee.
    I like this.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlayOtters View Post
    Rudiments are like reading a book about sex technique while remaining a virgin..
    The difference is, I don't have to ask my wife to practice rudiments. Although, they both give her a headache.
    -Brian

    "Too many crappy used drum stuff to list"

    Play the SONG......not the DRUMS!!!

    "I think that feeling is a lot more important than technique. It's all very well doing a triple paradiddle - but who's going to know you've done it? If you play technically you sound like everybody else. It's being original that counts." ~ John Bonham

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlayOtters View Post
    OP,
    If you need to double up on the hi hat for some reason you can use both hands on the hi hat and play the back beat with the right hand. That goes double for a fast shuffle.

    I think that learning to play a song is waaaaaay more important than learning rudiments.
    Actually I had just got to the part in the book with 16th note rhythms and a lot of them use both hand on the high hat. So it makes sense that I can do the same for quicker tempo 8th notes. Thanks. It actually tuns out that my bass foot is whats slowing me down but I'm sure that's mostly down to the fact that I've only been behind a kit for 2 months. I've been doing some exercises to work on that, the Jarrod guy on the youtube video says you should be able to work up to constant 8th notes up to a tempo of 200bpm (so 400 bass strokes a minute i guess) on a single pedal (without using heal toe, slide technique or such ) I struggle to keep it smooth at around 120bpm (so 240 bass strokes a minute).

    Just a question by rudiments you mean things like paradiddles and flams etc? I did a couple of months of them on a practice pad before I got a kit (well stuff from page 1 of the stick control book) But haven't done any since i got the kit as I've not seen any reference to such things in the drumset musician book. It only has lots of different rhythms in different styles and a small amount of fills and how it works in songs. Or does the rudiment mean any type of rhythm pattern so for example the basic 4/4 rock beat is a rudiment just as a single roll, flam, parrotdiddle are?

    I do get your point though about playing rather than obsessing over technique.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulven View Post
    Actually I had just got to the part in the book with 16th note rhythms and a lot of them use both hand on the high hat. So it makes sense that I can do the same for quicker tempo 8th notes. Thanks. It actually tuns out that my bass foot is whats slowing me down but I'm sure that's mostly down to the fact that I've only been behind a kit for 2 months. I've been doing some exercises to work on that, the Jarrod guy on the youtube video says you should be able to work up to constant 8th notes up to a tempo of 200bpm (so 400 bass strokes a minute i guess) on a single pedal (without using heal toe, slide technique or such ) I struggle to keep it smooth at around 120bpm (so 240 bass strokes a minute).

    Just a question by rudiments you mean things like paradiddles and flams etc? I did a couple of months of them on a practice pad before I got a kit (well stuff from page 1 of the stick control book) But haven't done any since i got the kit as I've not seen any reference to such things in the drumset musician book. It only has lots of different rhythms in different styles and a small amount of fills and how it works in songs. Or does the rudiment mean any type of rhythm pattern so for example the basic 4/4 rock beat is a rudiment just as a single roll, flam, parrotdiddle are?

    I do get your point though about playing rather than obsessing over technique.
    By rudiments I meant, as you say, paradiddles etc. And they are really useful to get clean strokes, and especially if you get stuck on the wrong hand.
    By stuck on the wrong hand I mean, for example, that you're in the middle of a fill and need to do something that you would normally do with your right hand, but your right hand is busy, so you need to do it with your left.

    I just checked 400 bpm and that's way too fast.
    The most you need to hit the bass drum is on 1, 3, 3and. And you don't even really need 3and, as long as you keep time.
    Learn to do that.
    The clever part is then doubling and dropping bass drum beats to create a groove. Playing doubles and triplets with a single bass drum pedal is better practice than just learning to go really fast. Unless that's the kind of music you want to play.
    In my opinion, learning to play grooves and common repeating phrases (and keep accurate time) is more important than just rudiments, but your guy seems to have you doing that now.
    One last thing, if you are planning to play a paradiddle play it with your right foot and left hand while playing fours on the hats with your right hand. This will give you the basis for a number of bass/snare/hihat grooves, and help independence.
    One last last thing, hand/foot independence is really important.
    Hope all this is helping!

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlayOtters View Post
    By rudiments I meant, as you say, paradiddles etc. And they are really useful to get clean strokes, and especially if you get stuck on the wrong hand.
    By stuck on the wrong hand I mean, for example, that you're in the middle of a fill and need to do something that you would normally do with your right hand, but your right hand is busy, so you need to do it with your left.

    I just checked 400 bpm and that's way too fast.
    The most you need to hit the bass drum is on 1, 3, 3and. And you don't even really need 3and, as long as you keep time.
    Learn to do that.
    The clever part is then doubling and dropping bass drum beats to create a groove. Playing doubles and triplets with a single bass drum pedal is better practice than just learning to go really fast. Unless that's the kind of music you want to play.
    In my opinion, learning to play grooves and common repeating phrases (and keep accurate time) is more important than just rudiments, but your guy seems to have you doing that now.
    One last thing, if you are planning to play a paradiddle play it with your right foot and left hand while playing fours on the hats with your right hand. This will give you the basis for a number of bass/snare/hihat grooves, and help independence.
    One last last thing, hand/foot independence is really important.
    Hope all this is helping!
    Thank you yes, that makes sense.
    No burning desire to just play fast. I was reasoning that I'd have to be able to play fast constant single peddle to then be able to play grooves where there are fast bass doubles and triplets not so i'd sound like i was firing a machinegun. Good to know that I haven't got to go as far or fast as I thought. ;-)

    Thanks for the tip on paradiddle for hand foot independence. I'll swap in a few minutes of that to my practices.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlayOtters View Post

    I think that learning to play a song is waaaaaay more important than learning rudiments. Rudiments are like reading a book about sex technique while remaining a virgin.
    Rudiments and clever book learning are for guys who already know how to play and want to tighten up their fills.
    Or guys that play snare in the marching band.
    It's like learning classy French to read a Camus novel, but not learning enough to order a cup of coffee.
    I cannot let this one go. This is just wrong.

    I think trying to learn songs before learning rudiments is like asking someone to read before teaching them the alphabet. Rudiments are the tools of playing and you use these tools to make music. Everything you play on a drum is a combination of rudiments. Play the rudiments, play the music.

    You are mistaking rudimentary playing with learning the basic tools of drumming.
    Life's too short to play the same solo twice. Improvise!

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnySticks View Post
    I cannot let this one go. This is just wrong.

    I think trying to learn songs before learning rudiments is like asking someone to read before teaching them the alphabet. Rudiments are the tools of playing and you use these tools to make music. Everything you play on a drum is a combination of rudiments. Play the rudiments, play the music.

    You are mistaking rudimentary playing with learning the basic tools of drumming.

    JS, I started in 1956 at the age of 10. No drum teachers in my home town, no internet, no DVD's. All I had were records and the occasional drummer that you would see for 5-10 seconds on TV.

    1st band was 1961, I was 14, started meeting other drummers and that's when I found out that there was such a thing as rudiments. I had been playing them all along, just didn't know they had a name and were part of the learning process.

    As far as teachers go, I have my opinions based on things I have seen and heard over a lot of years. That's a song and dance for another time.

  18. #18

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    I'm not saying the only way to learn drums is to have a teacher drill you on the rudiments, but every single time you hit a drum you are playing a rudiment of some sort. If you only play single stroke rolls, bounce rolls, flams and ruffs, congratulations, you are playing rudiments. And everything you play will be terrible until you learn them and practice them. I don't care if you learn what a pataflafla is ( I don't--I grew up in the era of 26 rudiments), but the basics are the basics and no matter how you learned to play, you are learning rudiments, whether you want to call them that or not.
    Life's too short to play the same solo twice. Improvise!

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnySticks View Post
    I'm not saying the only way to learn drums is to have a teacher drill you on the rudiments, but every single time you hit a drum you are playing a rudiment of some sort. If you only play single stroke rolls, bounce rolls, flams and ruffs, congratulations, you are playing rudiments. And everything you play will be terrible until you learn them and practice them. I don't care if you learn what a pataflafla is ( I don't--I grew up in the era of 26 rudiments), but the basics are the basics and no matter how you learned to play, you are learning rudiments, whether you want to call them that or not.

    I started in 1956. I think there were only 2 1/2 rudiments at that time. The 1/2 rudiment became the 5 stroke roll.

    I learn something every day. I thought a pataflafla was a Italian pasta dish and triplets was when you had 3 kids at 1 time.

  20. #20

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    ^^^^^^^, Rick's words of wisdom......




    Jim
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  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by js218 View Post
    ^^^^^^^, Rick's words of wisdom......




    Jim


    Stick around Jim, you might learn nothing. Then again, you never know.

  22. #22

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    Actually I look forward to your post whether serious or jokingly. On another note I'm in the middle of loading up the new rv plan on heading out next week still have to purchase a trailer to tow the wife's Explorer with......
    Premier XPK Drums
    10, 12, 13, 14, 16 Suspended toms
    22 bass drum
    5 x 14 snare
    Premier Hardware
    Offset Double Pedal
    Sabian, Meniel cymbals
    Tama Metalworks 6.5 x 14" Black Nickel snare
    Ahead Drum Cases

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by js218 View Post
    Actually I look forward to your post whether serious or jokingly. On another note I'm in the middle of loading up the new rv plan on heading out next week still have to purchase a trailer to tow the wife's Explorer with......


    I don't know where your travels will take you, but if you haven't seen the Grand Canyon, make sure it's 1 of your stops.

  24. #24

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    I'm not real interested in rudiments at ***BPM. Booorrring! To make them more interesting practice rudiments (using a practice pad or cushion) to music then go to your kit and see how they translate over to drums. They translate differently-BPM don't really make the most difference, it's accents and fit to the music. Depending on your accents doing paradiddles they may fit 4/4 time but suck in relation to the feel of the music(and you may end on the wrong hand, screwing up potential cymbal hits!).
    So plug in those headphones and practice rudiments to the music.
    Last edited by slinglander; 06-29-2016 at 02:52 PM. Reason: text
    SONOR 6 pc Special Edition 3007's red maple, old Pearl Brass 14x6 FF snare, Yamaha Tour Custom maple 8 pc., Tama 4 pc., honey amber B/B, Ludwig Supralite chrome 14x6.5 steel snare, Paiste, Saluda & Zildjian
    Loaned out Slingerland upgraded 4 pc 1963 black, wrapped maple + 14" Pearl birch FT
    The Almighty Speed King pedal, Speed Cobra, Sonor Single

    http://www.screaminmelinas.com
    http://www.facebook.com/DerailedRockers/

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by slinglander View Post
    I'm not real interested in rudiments at ***BPM. Booorrring! To make them more interesting practice rudiments (using a practice pad or cushion) to music then go to your kit and see how they translate over to drums. They translate differently-BPM don't really make the most difference, it's accents and fit to the music. Depending on your accents doing paradiddles they may fit 4/4 time but suck in relation to the feel of the music(and you may end on the wrong hand, screwing up potential cymbal hits!).
    So plug in those headphones and practice rudiments to the music.
    Excellent point. I actually pay a lot of attention to accents and very little to the "in between" strokes. If the accents are in their proper place, I can stay in time and keep the feel.....just like you said.
    -Brian

    "Too many crappy used drum stuff to list"

    Play the SONG......not the DRUMS!!!

    "I think that feeling is a lot more important than technique. It's all very well doing a triple paradiddle - but who's going to know you've done it? If you play technically you sound like everybody else. It's being original that counts." ~ John Bonham

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