Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: Triggers

  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Default Triggers

    Been a long time since I've posted anything... been very busy with band stuff and work, of course. Iraconji is going awesome, and we're about to celebrate the release of our debut album in October. And more recently, I joined another band called Flummox, so now I'm pulling double duty! Totally worth it.

    ANYWAYS,

    A month or so ago, I traded one of my guitars for an Alesis DM5 drum module and a Roland 10KT kick drum trigger, for use in Iraconji. I utilize a lot of double bass, and a fair amount of blast beats, and the trigger just sounds awesome cutting through the guitarist's full stacks. We're pretty noisy.

    I'm still pretty new to utilizing a trigger (just one trigger on one kick drum, mind you). I've got it pretty dialed in to where I want it, I think, but I wanted to pick your brains about the subject.

    Anyone else here use a trigger? I have a feeling it's probably an unpopular opinion around here, but I want to ask anyway.

    Is there a strategic best spot to mount the trigger? I've had to do a lot of tweaking to eliminate crosstalk. I've got it about 95% eliminated, but once in a while the trigger will still be set off by other drum hits. I rimshot the snare a LOT, and sometimes that will set it off. If I play the higher toms a little hard, that will do it too. Like I said, I've done a lot of tweaking and I've been able to eliminate a lot of it, but I'm curious if there's any other tricks of the trigger trade.

    Also, given my particular trigger, it has a foam cone as the sensor. Should that cone mush up against the head a little? A lot? Or should it just barely touch the head?

    EDIT: Forgot to mention - I have the trigger mounted about 5 o'clock, near the beaters.

    And lastly - kick drum head tension. I would think that tightening the kick drum head a little would help in the trigger's function, but again, I want to get some opinions.

    So, anyone else use triggers here? What do you use? And what are your tips and tricks?
    Last edited by Vhyle; 08-03-2016 at 07:16 PM.
    ALGAROTHSYUM - post-apocalyptic instrumental metal - currently working on third full-length album!
    Bandcamp - Facebook

    IRACONJI- Nashville death/thrash metal - drummer
    Facebook

  2. #2

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    Quote Originally Posted by Vhyle View Post

    Anyone else here use a trigger? I have a feeling it's probably an unpopular opinion around here, but I want to ask anyway.
    Hmm....why would you think that?

    Not currently using triggers, but did ten+ years ago with a TD-12 module. I had issues with crosstalk and never did get it 100% dialed in. It was fine where venue stages were spread out, or on concrete floors, but smaller venues with wooden stages were the worst. Bass guitar rigs would rattle everything and set my floor toms and kick drums off.
    "The problem with information on the Internet is that you can not validate it's authenticity. " -Abraham Lincoln

    SILVERFOX DRUMSTICKS & SOULTONE CYMBALS Endorsing Artist.

  3. #3

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    .............and the necessity of these things are?

  4. #4

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    When I got my DM5 years ago I've tried using it in live situations many times and came to the conclusion - studio use YES / live use NO!

  5. #5

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    .............and the necessity of these things are?
    Necessity of triggers?

    Hmm....why would you think that?

    Not currently using triggers, but did ten+ years ago with a TD-12 module. I had issues with crosstalk and never did get it 100% dialed in. It was fine where venue stages were spread out, or on concrete floors, but smaller venues with wooden stages were the worst. Bass guitar rigs would rattle everything and set my floor toms and kick drums off.
    Well, I think that because the majority of the population on this forum probably doesn't play much metal, but that's just a very general observation. I haven't been a member here very long, and I am open to the possibility of being totally wrong on that, haha.

    I've got mine pretty well dialed in, to where the bass doesn't even set off the trigger anymore. It did, but it took a lot of experimenting and tweaking to get it to where it is now. So far so good, I think. I have the threshold right in the spot where it's not too sensitive. Even just tapping on the head itself won't set the trigger off, so it still requires a decent amount of force for it to register. I can't "cheat" it and just barely tap the head to get it to go off. I've seen drummers do that before, and they have had issues with external vibrations interfering a lot. So I think I've done a pretty good job with tweaking that out.

    When I got my DM5 years ago I've tried using it in live situations many times and came to the conclusion - studio use YES / live use NO!
    Studio, of course, triggers are easy cheesy. Live use - like I said above, I've tweaked it enough to where it works well in live situations. I'm not really running into problems in live scenarios, at this point. It works pretty well.

    I mainly posted this to see if anyone here was able to tweak it 100%.
    ALGAROTHSYUM - post-apocalyptic instrumental metal - currently working on third full-length album!
    Bandcamp - Facebook

    IRACONJI- Nashville death/thrash metal - drummer
    Facebook

  6. #6

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    .............and the necessity of these things are?
    In this context, they're generally used to "trigger" an audio sample that can cut through all the downtuned guitars & bass, and to add definition so that fast double kick doesn't just sound like a muddy wall of noise.
    - Zack

  7. #7

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    I've used pintech triggers for a while and then switched to axis ekits for my bass drum.I found that getting accurate triggering can be tricky for fast double bass for a few reasons.

    First problem I had was that I have a habit of keeping the beaters buried into the drum head when I'm not playing a note which an cause double triggers. Also, you need to have a tight drum head and I found that having the inside of the drum padded or filled with pillows or blankets helps a lot. Unfortunately, if you want to play without triggers your bass drum will sound awful.another hurdle is dialing in your module. You'll wat to have your settings just right. This can be a lot to overcome, but if you get it right a triggered kick can sound awesome , especially for heavier music genres.

    I'm taking a break from playing really heavy metal right now, so I'm not triggering live. The current band does a lot of recording and I record with mics and then take the recorded bass drum and use a kick to MIDI gate and trigger my bass drum after the fact.this has worked really well for me.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    Ludwig centennial natural 11 piece
    Gp jungle natural 4 piece
    Yamaha dtxpress3
    Saluda cymbals
    zildjian a customs
    Sabian aax

  8. #8

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    I used triggers for years on my kicks because I did extremely fast and complex bass drum patterns in my old progressive metal bands. Mics just loose that tone and feeling vs triggers. I was just using ddrum triggers. I also had two bass drums and they were not low like yours. I found that my foot taping could set them off. I kept them around 2 o'clock on the right bass and 10 o'clock on the left bass drum. I also had them a hair tighter but not smashed on the head. The head it self was tighter to get quicker rebound but not horribly tight. As far as settings I didn't make them super sensitive because I am a heavier hitter.

  9. #9

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    .............and the necessity of these things are?
    Quote Originally Posted by xweasel View Post
    In this context, they're generally used to "trigger" an audio sample that can cut through all the downtuned guitars & bass, and to add definition so that fast double kick doesn't just sound like a muddy wall of noise.
    More popular a few years ago, triggers do have a place in metal.
    And those Axis pedals you just bought are a good addition to this very application.................faster and lighter.

    I don't play with any triggers any more but enjoyed toying with them years ago.................I've returned to the simple and great maple shells we all love.
    Gretsch USA & Zildjian
    (What Else Would I Ever Need ?)


  10. #10

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    Quote Originally Posted by EddieV View Post
    Hmm....why would you think that?
    Probably because of......

    .............and the necessity of these things are?






    Personally, I trigger everything for a number of reasons.






  11. #11

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    Awesome replies everyone! Just what I was hoping for. I'm going to quickly reply to some points.

    Yes - I used triggers to cut through the mix and it in a thrash/death metal band where all guitar players (2 guitars and bass) all play full stacks, the triggered kick cuts through the mix perfectly and it sounds awesome.

    I have band practice here in an hour or so, and I'll adjust my kick drum head a little bit tighter and see how it goes.

    When we are playing punishing tempos, I tend to rest the beaters on the head (usually the left one), but I have my module threshold set just right to where it doesn't cause double hits. I like it this way, honestly, because I do have a habit of resting the beaters down, haha. It aids in my personal comfort and keeps me right on top of bring the left foot into the action. Also, tapping the head lightly with the beaters doesn't set it off either - I still need to play with moderate force, and I'd like to keep it this way. This will keep me from "cheating", and of course, cuts way down on crosstalk.

    NewTricks - cool setup! I have a Pearl traveller kit that still has the mesh heads... now I'm wondering if I can turn that into an experiment.

    Now, when we recorded our album, I didn't have the trigger setup yet. The kicks were "triggered" in post-production, rather than in the signal directly. The kick was mic'd like normal, but replaced later on. But now that I'm using an actual trigger, it's consistent with the album material - and it sounds awesome regardless!

    Thanks for the replies, everyone. Anyone else have trigger experiences to share?
    ALGAROTHSYUM - post-apocalyptic instrumental metal - currently working on third full-length album!
    Bandcamp - Facebook

    IRACONJI- Nashville death/thrash metal - drummer
    Facebook

  12. #12

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    Back in the early 90's in Houston Texas I met Terry Bozzio at his clinic at the "Drum & Keyboard Shop" . He was using REMO drums back then . Anyway..back when he was playing with "Missing Persons" he was using an all electronic kit with his own custom set and samples . I was really big on the electronic stuff and triggering my own acoustic kit (also a REMO set) . So I got to spend a whole hour with Terry alone along with "Texas" Tim Root talking about his electronic stuff and his custom kit . Terry and Tim had partnered and had developed the Cooper "Treasure Chest" module which was basically a sample module . But it was strictly for drums and it came loaded with custom 12 bit samples of drums and you could buy ..discs (yea as in floppy) with more samples . Anyway Tim Root (he works for Roland now . He's the big wig for V-Drum development) gave me the best advise there was for triggering . What he told me to do was to mount the trigger to the inside of the shell with the side just touching the head . Now keep in mind that back then most of us made our own triggers . You would go to the Radio Shack and buy a bunch of piezo buzzers , pop the back off of them and solder some longer leads . So..the trick to the shell mount was that you used thick double sided tape , the kind made out of foam . This would cushion the trigger from the shell vibrations so it wouldn't trigger if you hit the shell or when you laid into your toms . And since it wasn't on the head it wouldn't double trigger either . You had to play with the velocity settings and such but you had to do the pretty much with any trigger module . This worked perfect ! I was using a K.A.T. "Midi Kitty" pad/trigger to midi converter into a Proteus "Procussion" drum sample module . I was deep into the electronic stuff so I had dove into that module and messed with the waveforms and came up with my own sounds . What we did was tuned the sampled drums from the module to my acoustic drums and layer them through the house mix . It was genius ! The sound out front was so clear and BIG . Worked perfectly every time thanks to Terry's and Tim's advice !
    Man I could go on with this ..but I won't . These days I have simplified my setup to a Roland SPD-S sample pad and a powered floor monitor .
    Last edited by jedi; 08-06-2016 at 07:52 PM.

  13. #13

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    I recently started using a trigger for metal. I think a tight head, and plenty of muffling inside the kick will stop the head from vibrating from other sounds. Too much muffling can cause the trigger to not work at all.

  14. #14

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    Man, we had Iraconji practice last night, and I was playing like garbage. It was just one of those off nights. These last few days have been rough (some other stuff going on at the moment), and I just couldn't get on my game last night with our music.

    I was having an issue with the trigger last night, also. I tightened up the kick drum head a bit to get some more rebound. I'm not sure if I botched the setup, but it seems like the trigger wasn't registering all of the hits it normally does. I didn't tweak anything on the module, so I'm wondering if it was just the setup. I re-mounted the trigger because we were torn down previously from a show, and I'm wondering if I just didnt' do it quite right. I made a few adjustments to various things, and nothing helped. Some of my hits weren't just coming through.

    As far as insulation - I just have two pillows in there for now. I leave it like this because when I play with Flummox, I don't use the trigger, so the kick drum still needs to sound decent. It's all about finding that perfect balance, I suppose.

    Or, I just have garbage technique and was playing like crap anyway. Usually the trigger will pick up softer hits, especially on my left foot, but it wasn't even doing that. It was just dropping in and out.

    Or it's a combination of all of the above - setup, technique, bad night, etc. I don't know.

    What I didn't try is turning it off and back on. I know that has worked before on my old V-drum kit, but I didn't even think of that last night.

    Quote Originally Posted by jedi View Post
    Back in the early 90's in Houston Texas I met Terry Bozzio at his clinic at the "Drum & Keyboard Shop"...<snip>
    Cool post! I'm intrigued to try that - mounting the trigger inside the kick with foam tape... it's very tempting, since that way once I get it set up right and dialed in, I can leave it mounted and set up. I don't have to reattach the trigger every time we set up. Hmm.
    ALGAROTHSYUM - post-apocalyptic instrumental metal - currently working on third full-length album!
    Bandcamp - Facebook

    IRACONJI- Nashville death/thrash metal - drummer
    Facebook

  15. #15

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    Reading that post again -

    The trigger detects a strike through the shell itself and not the head?
    ALGAROTHSYUM - post-apocalyptic instrumental metal - currently working on third full-length album!
    Bandcamp - Facebook

    IRACONJI- Nashville death/thrash metal - drummer
    Facebook

  16. #16

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    Quote Originally Posted by Vhyle View Post
    Reading that post again -

    The trigger detects a strike through the shell itself and not the head?
    Well you put the edge of the trigger on the head , but bearly . So when you strike the head it triggers . The trigger is not picking up vibrations from the head or the shell (because of the foam tape) .
    I got to get to a gig right now but if you need more info I'll log back on later tonight .

  17. #17

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    Quote Originally Posted by jedi View Post
    Well you put the edge of the trigger on the head , but bearly . So when you strike the head it triggers . The trigger is not picking up vibrations from the head or the shell (because of the foam tape) .
    I got to get to a gig right now but if you need more info I'll log back on later tonight .
    If you don't mind, I'd appreciate it!
    ALGAROTHSYUM - post-apocalyptic instrumental metal - currently working on third full-length album!
    Bandcamp - Facebook

    IRACONJI- Nashville death/thrash metal - drummer
    Facebook

  18. #18

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    I still have one drum left from that REMO kit and it still has the trigger in it . So in the morning I will dig it out and take some pictures . It's easier if I show it to you than try to explain it to you . It's one of the triggers I made too !
    By the way..what kind of trigger are you using ?

  19. #19

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    This is the best I could do picture wise , I'm not much of a photographer .
    The tape holding the trigger has sagged over time , it's been sitting in this drum since 1993 ! But it's supposed to be up higher . The edge should be touching the head but bearly . How we did it was we put a small piece of paper between the head and the edge of the trigger , then we set the trigger in and pulled out the paper so that there was a very slight gap . But once you smack the head the the trigger will fire .
    I'm currently using this 16 inch tom as a small kick drum , for rehearsals , and I don't use the trigger at all .
    You don't have to try this ... it's just my story .
    By the way .. I've heard stories of Bozzio being a jerk . But I can tell you that the time we spent discussing the electronic stuff he was very informed and so willing to share his knowledge with me . Texas Tim as well . They both made me feel like their contemporary and not once were they condescending . We had some laughs and drank a Coke .

    [IMG][/IMG]

  20. #20

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    ^that's an interested trigger I've never seen before.

  21. #21

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    Quote Originally Posted by SpazApproved View Post
    ^that's an interested trigger I've never seen before.
    Spaz..it's not a trigger you would find commercially . This is a piezo buzzer we would buy at the Radio Shack , peel the back off and solder on some longer leads . This was back in the days when triggering was just starting to catch on and there wasn't many companies selling triggers . And those that were available were expensive . There was an article in Modern Drummer mag where they showed how to make them . These came out to about three bucks apiece . Unfortunately Radio Shack no longer sells these .

  22. #22

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    Quote Originally Posted by rickthedrummer View Post
    .............and the necessity of these things are?
    In the early 2000's I was playing in a group that was doing a lot of corporate situations. Weddings. Corporate outings, and of course some clubs. Some of the gigs were "bigger", but most were a more medium sized situation. Think: Resort ball rooms.

    We wanted a "large-produced" sound that was consistent, but without the need for a huge PA, Sound man and of course without the high volume.

    I took my kit, stuffed the shells with foam, triggered it with Pintech RS5's, and bought a Roland TD8 module for it (then eventually upgraded to a TD12). I used real cymbals that we usually mic'd using condensers.




    It worked great, until we were playing smaller stages - especially where the stage was wooden. Vibrations from other instruments caused cross talk in my floor tom. Especially the bass guitar. It drove me nuts. I tried resting the floor tom on rubber foam cushions,even cymbal felts but couldn't eliminate the problem. I tried everything, moved the bass player, different heads, different configurations of this and that, trigger placements...everything it seemed. Even got the Roland Rep AND PinTech involved - who were very helpful. We were able to help it...but not eliminate it altogether. It was frustrating especially because it sounded great at first and for most of the gig. But every now and then.....frfrfrfrfrfrfrfrfrfrfrfrfrfrfrfrfrfrfrfum p!

    So...I switched to rubber pads (Ekit) and ended up just using that all the time. We didn't have problems.....but I hated playing the rubber pads.

    Last edited by EddieV; 08-08-2016 at 03:44 PM.
    "The problem with information on the Internet is that you can not validate it's authenticity. " -Abraham Lincoln

    SILVERFOX DRUMSTICKS & SOULTONE CYMBALS Endorsing Artist.

  23. #23

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    Quote Originally Posted by jedi View Post
    By the way..what kind of trigger are you using ?
    Roland RT10K. I said 10KT earlier but that was incorrect.

    http://cdn.roland.com/assets/images/..._angle_gal.jpg
    Last edited by Vhyle; 08-08-2016 at 06:23 PM. Reason: Holy cow, huge image
    ALGAROTHSYUM - post-apocalyptic instrumental metal - currently working on third full-length album!
    Bandcamp - Facebook

    IRACONJI- Nashville death/thrash metal - drummer
    Facebook

  24. #24

    User Info Menu

    Default Re: Triggers

    Quote Originally Posted by jedi View Post
    Back in the early 90's in Houston Texas I met Terry Bozzio at his clinic at the "Drum & Keyboard Shop" . He was using REMO drums back then . Anyway..back when he was playing with "Missing Persons" he was using an all electronic kit with his own custom set and samples . I was really big on the electronic stuff and triggering my own acoustic kit (also a REMO set) . So I got to spend a whole hour with Terry alone along with "Texas" Tim Root talking about his electronic stuff and his custom kit . Terry and Tim had partnered and had developed the Cooper "Treasure Chest" module which was basically a sample module . But it was strictly for drums and it came loaded with custom 12 bit samples of drums and you could buy ..discs (yea as in floppy) with more samples . Anyway Tim Root (he works for Roland now . He's the big wig for V-Drum development) gave me the best advise there was for triggering . What he told me to do was to mount the trigger to the inside of the shell with the side just touching the head . Now keep in mind that back then most of us made our own triggers . You would go to the Radio Shack and buy a bunch of piezo buzzers , pop the back off of them and solder some longer leads . So..the trick to the shell mount was that you used thick double sided tape , the kind made out of foam . This would cushion the trigger from the shell vibrations so it wouldn't trigger if you hit the shell or when you laid into your toms . And since it wasn't on the head it wouldn't double trigger either . You had to play with the velocity settings and such but you had to do the pretty much with any trigger module . This worked perfect ! I was using a K.A.T. "Midi Kitty" pad/trigger to midi converter into a Proteus "Procussion" drum sample module . I was deep into the electronic stuff so I had dove into that module and messed with the waveforms and came up with my own sounds . What we did was tuned the sampled drums from the module to my acoustic drums and layer them through the house mix . It was genius ! The sound out front was so clear and BIG . Worked perfectly every time thanks to Terry's and Tim's advice !
    Man I could go on with this ..but I won't . These days I have simplified my setup to a Roland SPD-S sample pad and a powered floor monitor .
    I'm gonna try to make my own triggers using this method. Do the piezo buzzers respond well with fast, continuous hits?
    ALGAROTHSYUM - post-apocalyptic instrumental metal - currently working on third full-length album!
    Bandcamp - Facebook

    IRACONJI- Nashville death/thrash metal - drummer
    Facebook

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •