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Thread: Cymbals over time

  1. #1

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    Default Cymbals over time

    I was with my mentor yesterday, and we were talking about cymbals and he said he had some 602s back in the 1970s and they lost their sound over time. He's got this crazy dark Zildjian ride which is like hitting a black hole, great sound, if not for me. That has only got better with age.

    I was wondering, has this happened to you? He was saying that Paiste's do that, and I believe him that his did this and before they had great sound...anyway, curious what you experts have to say
    Yamaha DTX 500 module
    Anatolian Kappadokia 14" Rock High Hats
    Sabian El Sabor 20" Ride
    Zildjian A 18" Crash Ride
    Istanbul Agop 16" Trash Hit
    1950's Zildjian 14" Splash/light crash
    Istanbul 8" Splash (pre 1997)
    Mapex Black Panther Steel Piccolo
    1965 Premier 3 piece 10, 16, 22


  2. #2

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    Default Re: Cymbals over time

    Short of being cracked, cut down, or having a crack fixed in some way, I've yet to hear a cymbal "lose it's sound".

  3. #3

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    Default Re: Cymbals over time

    Could be a couple things. When cymbals get dirty, the grooving collects dust, dirt, smoke, etc.. This gives it a darker and slightly duller sound. The other possibility is a change in the internal tension/forces in the cymbal. These forces are what shapes the sound of the cymbal. You can Google info about cymbal making if you want details. Basically, the more a cymbal is played, the more these forces can even out, or change due to the vibrations. I can honestly confirm that my Wuhans definitely changed in sound over the first 6mo. of use. They became less harsh in terms of overtones and more mellow. I can't say if the change in sound would be as noticeable in a high quality cymbal...I've never owned one brand new.
    FWIW, the same "vibration/internal structure change over age and use" theory also applies to guitars and violins, and even drum shells.
    -Brian

    "Too many crappy used drum stuff to list"

    Play the SONG......not the DRUMS!!!

    "I think that feeling is a lot more important than technique. It's all very well doing a triple paradiddle - but who's going to know you've done it? If you play technically you sound like everybody else. It's being original that counts." ~ John Bonham

  4. #4

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    Default Re: Cymbals over time

    well, the guy is a pro, so I seriously doubt he would dirt or anything else for loss of sound (he likes his cymbals dirty as most jazzers do).

    Vibrations over time seems to be a good line of thought, as this could alter the alignment of molecules (as it does with say a samurai sword), although a couple of problems arise from this: 1. Cymbals aren't under heat like the aforementioned sword, 2. This should apply for all cymbals, regardless of brand, which it certainly does not.

    It could also be that after so many years, his ears got used to the sound and therefore the sound seemed dull, even if it was the same. It might also be that the way a brand of cymbals are made are succumb more quickly to the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

  5. #5

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    Default Re: Cymbals over time

    I think the theory of "losing my hearing" my have some play in this . I still have the first pair of hi hats that I got back in 1979 , Zildjian New Beats . To me they now sound dull when I got them back then for the sole reason that they were bright and cutting . But other drummers tell me they sound crisp and "just right" . Sometimes I'll go months without using them , I'll use my Mastersound Hybrids or the 13" K/Z combos , and when I pull them out again they sound just fine . Then a month later I'm back to hating them . So .... yea .
    I guess I really don't know what I'm talking about ...I'm just bored .
    Sorry.

  6. #6

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    Default Re: Cymbals over time

    Quote Originally Posted by N2Bluz View Post
    Could be a couple things. When cymbals get dirty, the grooving collects dust, dirt, smoke, etc.. This gives it a darker and slightly duller sound. The other possibility is a change in the internal tension/forces in the cymbal. These forces are what shapes the sound of the cymbal. You can Google info about cymbal making if you want details. Basically, the more a cymbal is played, the more these forces can even out, or change due to the vibrations. I can honestly confirm that my Wuhans definitely changed in sound over the first 6mo. of use. They became less harsh in terms of overtones and more mellow. I can't say if the change in sound would be as noticeable in a high quality cymbal...I've never owned one brand new.
    FWIW, the same "vibration/internal structure change over age and use" theory also applies to guitars and violins, and even drum shells.


    Brian, I left out the fact that they get dirty because that can be fixed with a good cleaning.


    "The other possibility is a change in the internal tension/forces in the cymbal. These forces are what shapes the sound of the cymbal."

    My question then would be, could the average person hear it. If 1 hooks up something to measure just about anything, there will be some difference from brand spanking new to 6 months old, but how many people could actually hear it.

    Your Wuhan cymbal might sound different to you because you ears have adapted to the harsh sound of china cymbals. When I go to play, at 1st, my snare is very crisp, but after about 10 minutes, it isn't as crisp as it was when I started. I've noticed that for decades. It's my ears adapting to the loud, harsh sound of the snare drum, yet the toms stay the same, but if I play on the hats for 10-15 minutes and then go to the drums, all of them "jump out at me" (for want of a better way to put it).

    In a way, it's like that "test" that was done with "experts" who said they could tell if a tom was mounted on the BD, mounted on the BD with some sort of isolation mount, or mounted on a stand with no contact with the BD. Some guys had 3 identical sets of drums set up the way described above. Not 1 "expert" could tell the difference when they couldn't see the drums. (the same guy tuned them and played them)

    I think it comes down to what we think we hear as opposed to what we really do hear.

  7. #7

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    Default Re: Cymbals over time

    It's all in the ears as others have said. After about a year of playing my K Con ride exclusively, I put my 70's era Paiste 602 back up and it sounded like nails on a blackboard. A few months later I took it over to a blues jam and it sounded like the thing of beauty it was when I first got it.

    all the best...

  8. #8
    BackStreetDrums Guest

    Default Re: Cymbals over time

    Cymbals are like wine. They get better with age.

    I have yet to notice any change in 50years of playing. Not to say, it couldn't happen, but never found it too. They are metal, afterall, and metal wears and tears with stress.

  9. #9

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    Default Re: Cymbals over time

    I believe the main reason is build up of patina. 'Patina' is a fashionable word to describe corrosion and grime. I believe that it builds up fills, lathe lines and masks some of the high frequencies, making the cymbal sound smoother and less abrasive which is probably why the Jazz fraternity generally don't clean cymbals, there is a point when 'mellow' can turn into 'dead' if too much crud builds up.

    JZG mentioned the cymbals in question are from the 70s, if they've been used frequently for over 40 years I think the 'patina' has transformed into a smothering blanket of crud..

    I would put some cymbal cleaner on a cloth and give the cymbals a quick, light wipe, wash off the cleaner, sound test and repeat as necessary. If he now considers the cymbals to sound 'dead' he has nothing to lose.

    Its probably safer not to suggest he could try cleaning them, as you may lose a friend

  10. #10

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    Default Re: Cymbals over time

    I have cymbals from the early 80's still and I still use them and love them.
    They've never lost tone for me.
    But we'll see what happens in another 30 years

  11. #11

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    Default Re: Cymbals over time

    I have a Alejian crash that I bought in Emporia Virginia for $10 (with stand), in 1966, that still sounds great.

    I have now had it for 50 years and I'm sure that somewhere in there, I cleaned it................................................ .........maybe.

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