The Who-Keith Moon

[jgziegler]

So this will probably ruffle a lot of feathers.

Lately I've been listening to Eminence Front a lot, and this song is truly awesome and great and super ect. And this morning I thought I'd give The Who another try...and I have to say I just don't see what the big deal is, both in their music and Moon's playing. Not that any of it is bad, nor not good, but just nothing impressive (EF excepted)

So can someone recommend something from them that is not one of their hits, and something that shows why Moon is considered so great.

BTW, I get that everyone has their own opinion, but considering I have a few friends who like classic rock as I do and we all see The Who the same way, I figure there must be something we're missing...

[Olimpass]

I believe Keith Moon had passed before Eminence Front came out or was recorded. (at least the versions I've heard of)
Kenneth Jones played drums for The Who on that song.
He drummed for Small Faces, Faces, Rod Stewart previously.


***also, please see sticky about rules for posting in Famous drummers***

[Ricardo]

I'm one of those in the minority that has the opinion that The Who created and recorded more flops than successes.

For every one of their great hits (and they do have some great hits), there are 3 or 4 misses.
Daltry had a once-powerful voice and presence...............Townsend turned out to be part great composer and part freak............and Entwistle was the genius force that accidentally killed himself with the storied cocaine heart attack.

IMHO, the pinnacle is WHO'S NEXT...............this is also the high-point for Moon's capabilities.
KM was a very unconventional drummer with some odd tweaks............for example: You rarely see his kit set-up with a high hat.

I have read the Moon bio and he was an incredibly self-destructive personality; almost to the point of cult idiocy.

[concrete Building]

Just a heads-up, I'm a Wholigan. I'm just about at the point where you can argue I've gotten a tad crazy, so I do have a bias.

Lately I've been listening to Eminence Front a lot, and this song is truly awesome and great and super ect. And this morning I thought I'd give The Who another try...and I have to say I just don't see what the big deal is, both in their music and Moon's playing. Not that any of it is bad, nor not good, but just nothing impressive (EF excepted)

As has been mentioned, Moon died in 1978 just a week after "Who Are You" came out. The eerie part of this? On the cover, he's sitting in a chair labeled "Not to be taken away". Eminence Front was recorded with in 1982 with Kenney Jones on drums.

So can someone recommend something from them that is not one of their hits, and something that shows why Moon is considered so great.

I can recommend all of Quadrophenia. His dynamics and the way he paints around the kit is very unique, even for himself. Many critics point to Quad as the height of his playing.

I'll also suggest some pieces of "Who By Numbers". "However Much I booze" is, I think one of the pieces he really shines because of his insane fills that are somehow still clean (listening to vinyl). I also think "Dreaming from the waist" is another great piece. After this album, he doesn't have much left, but "Who Are You" is an album that's still worth listening to.

Something else worth looking at are the live pieces of "Tommy". He still puts on a fun and terrifying Uncle Ernie (and he does it later on in the album).

Townsend turned out to be part great composer and part freak............and Entwistle was the genius force that accidentally killed himself with the storied cocaine heart attack.

I actually see Townshend as the genius. Yes, he's a madman. They all are. But the one who really got to digging his way into the wires and papers was Pete, and the work really shows. If you listen to the demos, most of the songs are very similar to the actual release.

Not to mention "Who's Next" came out of "Lifehouse" that was going to be an even bigger thing than Tommy and Quad, both of which still came out of the mind of Pete.

I have read the Moon bio and he was an incredibly self-destructive personality; almost to the point of cult idiocy.

Curious, is this "Dear Boy" you're referring to, or a different one? I have "Dear Boy" but I also know the same author did several other Moon books.

[jgziegler]

@Olimpass, I do know that, however this post is just as much about the who as it is Moon, I see it two parts Like I really don't like Rush, but anyone with ears can hear that Peart is an absolute beast and with Moon/The Who it;s like my ears are simply missing something, but point taken on where to post...

@concrete, yea, I knew I should "issue a trigger warning" but no reason to get angry, i'm sure some people here think Jimi or Coltrane are complete garbage...I'll have a listen. BTW, it's also a bit my approach to music, I listen to just about everything (i know everyone says that, but outside of metal and hard hard rock, i do) so The Who are fine, I wouldn't ask you to change the music as I might if you were playing Iron Maiden, it's just that if I'm gonna listen to that style, why have the The Who burger when I can have the Led Zep steak? And if I want a musical burger, there's always dubstep!

@Ricardo, I read that about the HH a while back and for me, that's really just a really poor choice. I prefer to play on the ride myself, but after the snare, the HH is the most versatile thing we've got! It's a bit like setting the table with only knives and spoons...

[js218]

Check out the album Odds and Sods Moon is actually fairly impressive on a couple of the songs......


Jim

[concrete Building]

Hey, I said what I said as a way to say "Take my word with maybe your own grain of salt". I rarely ever get truly angry. I have my own definite bias when it comes to some things because I'm a geek and I get super obsessive about some of the things I like. So I'll always be happy to inform people whose question involves one of the things I obsess over, but it may not be entirely objective.

Sorry if I'd confused you about that.

I do get what you mean, though. A lot of times, I wonder why I'm not a huge fan of the Led Zep steak, even though it came from the same cook as the Who burger, and all my Who-loving friends also love the Zep steak. And then I try it, and it's a great steak, don't get me wrong. If I ever cooked a steak, it would definitely be a lot less tasty than this one. However, I don't LOVE it as much as the Who burger or the Rush pizza, or even the Pink Floyd enchilada. Why? Beats me, but somehow that's how it is. I guess I'm not a steak person and maybe you're not exactly a burger person.

[Olimpass]

@Olimpass, I do know that, however this post is just as much about the who as it is Moon, I see it two parts Like I really don't like Rush, but anyone with ears can hear that Peart is an absolute beast and with Moon/The Who it;s like my ears are simply missing something

Sorry, I probably misinterpreted your point.

Keith Moon, in my opinion was a unique artist.
You may like it or you don't.

For me, he was a unique drummer with an unmistakable style.

I like how concrete Building put it..
"His dynamics and the way he paints around the kit"

[Ricardo]

Curious, is this "Dear Boy" you're referring to, or a different one? I have "Dear Boy" but I also know the same author did several other Moon books.

No..............I read the one by the guy that worked for The Who for many years.

@Ricardo, I read that about the HH a while back and for me, that's really just a really poor choice. I prefer to play on the ride myself, but after the snare, the HH is the most versatile thing we've got! It's a bit like setting the table with only knives and spoons...

No disagreement -- He preferred to pound away on the double basses.

[kay-gee]

Hey, I said what I said as a way to say "Take my word with maybe your own grain of salt". I rarely ever get truly angry. I have my own definite bias when it comes to some things because I'm a geek and I get super obsessive about some of the things I like. So I'll always be happy to inform people whose question involves one of the things I obsess over, but it may not be entirely objective.

Sorry if I'd confused you about that.

I do get what you mean, though. A lot of times, I wonder why I'm not a huge fan of the Led Zep steak, even though it came from the same cook as the Who burger, and all my Who-loving friends also love the Zep steak. And then I try it, and it's a great steak, don't get me wrong. If I ever cooked a steak, it would definitely be a lot less tasty than this one. However, I don't LOVE it as much as the Who burger or the Rush pizza, or even the Pink Floyd enchilada. Why? Beats me, but somehow that's how it is. I guess I'm not a steak person and maybe you're not exactly a burger person.

I personally like the Who better than Zep. Nothing to do do with drums really, I just like Daltrey's singing better than Plant's.

The Who were great. It's the same old thing. What made them great? Don't know. The sum of the parts. What makes any band great? They had a uniqueness about them. I don't think Keith was a great drummer per se, but he was great all the same. Tons of energy. It's not easy to play a continual single stroke roll through every song!!

all the best...

[jgziegler]

@Concrete, I got what you meant (after reading 2x as I was posting) but I left my response just to show that what one holds sacred, another can dislike I do disagree that Rush is more like molecular gastronomy (which I am dying to try) and that for some they might love it, for others too specific as the Czechs say. PF...well I don't know what food I could describe as serious and groovy as that, but they are kinda the whole enchilada without a doubt!!

@Ricardo, really the spoon is the snare as it's more universal, but I felt the using the fork as the missing instrument makes a better mental picture

@kaygee + olimpass, well said!

[FlayOtters]

Well first of all, Eminence Front was not really the Who. It was more of a precursor to the Peter Gabriel song Sledgehammer. It was a mediocre 80s groove thing, if you weren't there you won't understand.
Now to Keith Moon.
He comes from the era that created, or more accurately allowed to happen, the modern rock drummer.
The farther you get from that era (mid sixties through mid seventies) the more mediocre the drumming gets.
For example, Watts, Moon, Bonham, Mitchell, these guys were the guys that invented modern drumming. They were the geniuses that showed the way. Bruford, Peart, and so on, they developed the basic drumming into something more technical. By the time you get to Roger Taylor you're getting a guy that really just plays along. And that's where we are today. A lot of poseurs and stylist with amazing technique, but without a creative idea in their heads.
It's like when somebody said: I don't get Stewart Copeland, I can do that.
Moon may not impress you because he doesn't do tricky sixteenth note hi-hat noodles (I hate that crap), or he doesn't use teeny tiny drums tuned high and credible cymbals, or he doesn't change time sigs five times in a song, but he was a true creator, the first and only one of his kind.
We are unworthy to drum in his shadow.
Basically, drumming, like guitar work was amazing in the sixties, great in the seventies, meh in the eighties, solid but unimaginative in the nineties... now it's just retro, do not pass go, do not collect, well, anything.
If you don't get Keith Moon, you don't get rock drumming. It's like saying why is Mitch Mitchell playing so much, or why doesn't Charlie Watts play more.
Best to practice your paradiddles so you can be an amazing technician, there is no more feel in drumming, but people love paradiddles.
What's that song say? The day the music died.
Real rock is gone, now it's just zombie rock.

[FlayOtters]

PS. You need a hi-hat because you're a drummer. He didn't need one (although it was only a phase he went through) because he was a creator.

[Ricardo]

We are unworthy to drum in his shadow.
What's that song say? The day the music died.
Real rock is gone, now it's just zombie rock.

Well, maybe you should quit.

[rickthedrummer]

Well first of all, Eminence Front was not really the Who. It was more of a precursor to the Peter Gabriel song Sledgehammer. It was a mediocre 80s groove thing, if you weren't there you won't understand.
Now to Keith Moon.
He comes from the era that created, or more accurately allowed to happen, the modern rock drummer.
The farther you get from that era (mid sixties through mid seventies) the more mediocre the drumming gets.
For example, Watts, Moon, Bonham, Mitchell, these guys were the guys that invented modern drumming. They were the geniuses that showed the way. Bruford, Peart, and so on, they developed the basic drumming into something more technical. By the time you get to Roger Taylor you're getting a guy that really just plays along. And that's where we are today. A lot of poseurs and stylist with amazing technique, but without a creative idea in their heads.
It's like when somebody said: I don't get Stewart Copeland, I can do that.
Moon may not impress you because he doesn't do tricky sixteenth note hi-hat noodles (I hate that crap), or he doesn't use teeny tiny drums tuned high and credible cymbals, or he doesn't change time sigs five times in a song, but he was a true creator, the first and only one of his kind.
We are unworthy to drum in his shadow.
Basically, drumming, like guitar work was amazing in the sixties, great in the seventies, meh in the eighties, solid but unimaginative in the nineties... now it's just retro, do not pass go, do not collect, well, anything.
If you don't get Keith Moon, you don't get rock drumming. It's like saying why is Mitch Mitchell playing so much, or why doesn't Charlie Watts play more.
Best to practice your paradiddles so you can be an amazing technician, there is no more feel in drumming, but people love paradiddles.
What's that song say? The day the music died.
Real rock is gone, now it's just zombie rock.

I was reading your post with some interest right up until:

"We are unworthy to drum in his shadow."

"the first and only one of his kind."

"You need a hi-hat because you're a drummer. He didn't need one (although it was only a phase he went through) because he was a creator."


That is when I realized that you are not just a Moon fan, you are obsessed with him.

Truth be told, the WHO became a better band when Moon.............left.

Did he do some interesting things, yes he did, but I have heard young drummers playing only a couple of years do interesting things.

Music in general, and drumming in particular have progressed over the "dead" years you mention, although, I guess, just not in a way you would like.

Maybe you should take Ricardos advice.

[FlayOtters]

Actually I'm not a Moon fan at all.
But his creativity simply makes my point.
In the "arts" there is often a period of creation, relatively short, but disruptive.
This is followed by a much longer period of "Mannerism" where the ideas of the creative period are made smoother and more palatable. Not copied as such, but stylistic tropes from the creative period are used and honed so that skill is emphasized over creativity.
We are in one of those periods now, where skill is paramount but creativity is... not.
If my prose was a little overwrought then I apologize.
But Moon was unique, unlike almost all other drummers. Whether you like that or not is irrelevant. I was not a huge fan.
By no means was The Who better after his demise; different of course, and a lot calmer.

[rickthedrummer]

It appears that you have used every multisyllable word you know to try to put down most of the music of the last 25+ years.

If you do come up with something valid, please post it.

[inthpktplayer]

That's a rather broad brush you're painting with there FlayOtters.

[jgziegler]

@flay, sure, movements go in patterns, highly decorative art nouveau was followed by "form is function" bauhaus. Point-counter point.

I would argue drummers today are probably better than they've ever been, so much access to music and resources...what;s more, we are a bit limited: most music the general public likes is in 4/4 and/or triplets. Most music the general public likes is ok with some over playing on guitar, not so much on drums (btw, Bonham was great at not overplaying, making a lot of their popular songs very accessible or you could even argue not creative in the drums). So while Amy Winehouse can come along and open up a whole new style of singing for mostly women to sing in, that;s just not going to happen with drums.

BTW the Black Keys drummer...well his work in their early albums might be called creative, i would call it someone without proper training and simply playing by feel. His later work, in my opinion, is much better, and also a lot more "standard". Sure, we could start doing crazy polyrhythms and songs in 4/36, and maybe it will sound cool and lots of people will love it...but my guess is that won't happen.

OR maybe instead of complaining, go out and write a hit doing something original

[rickthedrummer]

"BTW the Black Keys drummer...well his work in their early albums might be called creative, i would call it someone without proper training and simply playing by feel"


Would there be something wrong with that?

[jgziegler]

@rtd not necessarily, more just that being "original" doesn't always mean it sounds good...

[rickthedrummer]

@rtd not necessarily, more just that being "original" doesn't always mean it sounds good...

True, but that can apply to "trained" and "untrained" drummers.

[slinky]

I love all the Who stuff. One of best bands ever and when EF came out no matter how many times it came on the radio I tuned in. What John played in that song.... the whole 2 notes... was so bad a**!

[jgziegler]

@rtd, do you know the music im talking about? Anyway, my point is a trained drummer would have probably played something more traditional, which i believe would work better...less is more kinda thing

[rickthedrummer]

@rtd, do you know the music im talking about? Anyway, my point is a trained drummer would have probably played something more traditional, which i believe would work better...less is more kinda thing

I know what you are talking about, and, yes, you are probably right.

In my playing days, I lived by 2 rules when playing:

Listen to the music, it will always tell you what to do.

Keep the customer satisfied.

If you do those 2 things, you will always be playing.