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Thread: more mic questions

  1. #1

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    OK, my other thread gave me more questions about micing.....

    I have aquired 3 mics, basically for free. They are Nady SP-5 Dynamic Cardoid mics.

    I know they're not the best, but they were free so I'm rolling with 'em.

    My question is about hook up and impedance....

    Since these mics are dynamic, and as such do not require their own phantom power, can I use a xlr to 1/4" cable to a 1/4" input on a smaller mixer or audio interface

    or

    do I still need to go to with an XLR/XLR cable and a 1/4" impedance adapter?
    Last edited by CycleDude; 03-20-2009 at 12:34 PM.
    Kevin
    DW Performance series - Gun Metal Metallic Lacquer
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  2. #2

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    Yep.

  3. #3

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    NR, It was an "either/or" type question, so I don't know which solution your "Yup" applies to. LOL!
    Kevin
    DW Performance series - Gun Metal Metallic Lacquer
    24/12/16 6.5x14
    Sabian AA/AAX hi-hats & crashes
    Sabian HHX Evolution ride

    Drummers can be very tempomental.....

  4. #4

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    Ahhh the #1 reason we keep guitar players around,,,,,I'm pretty sure 1/4 to 1/4, and ya wont need an adapter.

  5. #5

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    Sorry I only read the first bit. You can use an xlr to 1/4 cable.

  6. #6

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    Condensor mics are the only ones that need phantom power.

    From a commercial site that had info

    There are three general classifications for microphone impedance. Different manufacturers use slightly different guidelines but the classifications are roughly:
    1. Low Impedance (less than 600Ω)
    2. Medium Impedance (600Ω - 10,000Ω)
    3. High Impedance (greater than 10,000Ω)

    Note that some microphones have the ability to select from different impedance ratings.
    Which Impedance to Choose?

    High impedance microphones are usually quite cheap. Their main disadvantage is that they do not perform well over long distance cables - after about 5 or 10 metres they begin producing poor quality audio (in particular a loss of high frequencies). In any case these mics are not a good choice for serious work. In fact, although not completely reliable, one of the clues to a microphone's overall quality is the impedance rating.
    Low impedance microphones are usually the preferred choice.
    Matching Impedance with Other Equipment

    Microphones aren't the only things with impedance. Other equipment, such as the input of a sound mixer, also has an ohms rating. Again, you may need to consult the appropriate manual or website to find these values. Be aware that what one system calls "low impedance" may not be the same as your low impedance microphone - you really need to see the ohms value to know exactly what you're dealing with.
    A low impedance microphone should generally be connected to an input with the same or higher impedance. If a microphone is connected to an input with lower impedance, there will be a loss of signal strength.
    In some cases you can use a line matching transformer, which will convert a signal to a different impedance for matching to other components.




    So, you need to know the impedance of the mic to know whether or not you need a line matching transformer(adaptor)
    Last edited by CharlyG; 03-20-2009 at 12:48 PM.
    Yamaha DTXtreme III FrankenXpress w/ various pads and cymbals
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  7. #7

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    They will work fine going from balanced XLR to unbalanced phone plug into your mixer. Pin #2, or hot or + or whatever you want to call it of the XLR goes straight through to the tip of the 1/4" plug. Pin #1 mic ground/shield goes to the shield or body of the 1/4" plug. Pin three which is cold or - of the XLR connector gets tied to the ground or shield wire in either the XLR connector or phone plug, it doesn't matter.

    There are some microphones or other sources that may use pin #3 as the hot pin. Since it's across a coil (dynamic element) or matching transformer inside the microphone it doesn't matter if pin 2 or 3 is considered hot. If everything was balanced, XLR to XLR it would matter because then you would have phasing problems.

    Dennis

  8. #8

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    OK, the Nady SP-5 is only 250Ω, so that's good. I was looking at the Alesis Multimix 8 FW which according to their website, the mixer has 4 high–gain mic/line (XLR and 1/4” balanced) inputs with phantom power, 2 stereo balanced 1/4” line inputs, aux send (can send to onboard or external effects), stereo aux return

    So I could just get the XLR/1/4" cord and be done with it, right?
    Kevin
    DW Performance series - Gun Metal Metallic Lacquer
    24/12/16 6.5x14
    Sabian AA/AAX hi-hats & crashes
    Sabian HHX Evolution ride

    Drummers can be very tempomental.....

  9. #9

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    From the online manual for that mixer

    For the mic inputs, use XLR cables.

    Mic Inputs (Channels 1 – 4)
    The MultiMix uses standard XLR-type mic inputs. These provide
    +48V phantom power that you can turn on and off with the
    Phantom On switch located on the rear of the mixer. You
    probably will have to turn on the phantom power when you’re
    using most condenser mics, as these usually require the extra
    voltage (unless the mic has its own power source, such as a
    battery). Dynamic and ribbon mics don’t require phantom power
    and are unaffected when the power is on.
    These high-quality mic inputs also feature up to 50dB of preamp
    gain that you can adjust with the Gain knob.
    Another useful feature of these mic inputs is a high-pass filter
    (HPF) that can be turned on and off with the HPF switch. When
    you activate this switch, all frequencies below 75Hz are cut from
    the signal. This is useful for mic or line signals that don’t have
    much bottom end, such as vocals, snares, cymbals and electric
    guitar. You’ll want to leave this inactivated for instruments like
    basses and kick drums.

    Line Inputs (Channels 1 – 4)
    The line inputs, marked LINE IN, are balanced 1/4” jacks that
    offer the same 50dB of preamp gain and the high-pass filter
    provided by the mic inputs (however, phantom power does not
    apply to line inputs). These inputs accept line-level instruments
    such as keyboards and drum machines. If you find that your
    instrument has a weak line signal, just plug it into channels 1 – 4
    and crank it up with the Gain knob.
    Although chances are your
    microphones will work fine
    with these mic inputs, we
    recommend that you do some
    checking up on the type of
    microphone you’re using,
    especially if it’s one of the
    older vintage models. Verify
    that your microphone
    requires phantom power and
    make sure its output is low
    impedance, balanced and
    floating.
    Always connect your
    microphones before
    activating phantom power.
    Microphones tend to be very
    sensitive, and the sudden
    power surge can do
    permanent damage to the
    mic’s circuitry. It’s also a
    good idea to lower mixer
    levels before you activate
    phantom power.

    Line Inputs (Channels 5 – 8)
    Unlike channels 1 – 4, the line inputs on channels 5 – 8 are stereo
    inputs that have left and right inputs. If you’re using one of these
    channels as a mono input, plug your instrument into the left input.
    Channels 5 – 8 don’t have the extra gain found on channels 1 – 4
    because most line-level instruments don’t require the extra boost.
    MIDI and other electronic instruments will work especially well on
    these channels. These inputs are also good for connecting CD
    players or tape decks, as these audio sources don’t require extra
    gain.


    The bottom line to all this info is, try the 1/4 inch on 1-4 first, and then try 5-8 as they willbe different. I would go with the recommendation from the factory to use xlr if possible
    Last edited by CharlyG; 03-20-2009 at 01:40 PM.
    Yamaha DTXtreme III FrankenXpress w/ various pads and cymbals
    Pearl Eliminator w/Vater Bomber
    Roc-N-Soc Motion
    Vater 7A Sugar Maple
    Simmons DA-200S
    Sony MDR-7506
    MacBookPro Core2 Duo 2.33,4gb,500gb w/SD2, Reason 4, and LE9

    http://s591.photobucket.com/albums/ss358/Charlygo/



  10. #10

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    Default Re: more mic questions

    OK, the point to all this is i can't afford a $300 mixer with 8 XLR inputs.

    So for my purposes of home recording and drum videos and such the 4 XLR inputs are the preferred input (1-kick, 2-snare, 3-rack & 4-floor toms) but I could go to 1/4" on the other channels for the (5/6 room) and (7/8 cymbals) without a problem, using dynamic mics.

    Correct?
    Kevin
    DW Performance series - Gun Metal Metallic Lacquer
    24/12/16 6.5x14
    Sabian AA/AAX hi-hats & crashes
    Sabian HHX Evolution ride

    Drummers can be very tempomental.....

  11. #11

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    I would think so. I may try just two mics and my M-Box mini to see how it sounds.
    Yamaha DTXtreme III FrankenXpress w/ various pads and cymbals
    Pearl Eliminator w/Vater Bomber
    Roc-N-Soc Motion
    Vater 7A Sugar Maple
    Simmons DA-200S
    Sony MDR-7506
    MacBookPro Core2 Duo 2.33,4gb,500gb w/SD2, Reason 4, and LE9

    http://s591.photobucket.com/albums/ss358/Charlygo/



  12. #12

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    It seems as if you can go XLR to XLR, this is the best bet for a lower noise floor into your mixer. The 1/4" stereo inputs would probably only have an input level somewhere between -10 to -30 decibels which is called line level. This may or may not depending on the mixer also just give you either a left or right feed to that input. The sensitivity of the mixer on these inputs would be too low since dynamic microphone levels are approximately -55 DB.

    The part in the manual about ribbon microphones not being affect by 48 volts of phantom power is baloney. I've seen more than one ribbon microphone phizzle at the sight of 48 volts on pins 2 and 3. If you don't need the phantom power from the mixer, it's best to shut it down.

    Dennis

  13. #13

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    BTW, just to clarify, audiotech is more knowledgeable than me. And tween the two of us, i hope we make sense! I still have to look this stuff up!
    Yamaha DTXtreme III FrankenXpress w/ various pads and cymbals
    Pearl Eliminator w/Vater Bomber
    Roc-N-Soc Motion
    Vater 7A Sugar Maple
    Simmons DA-200S
    Sony MDR-7506
    MacBookPro Core2 Duo 2.33,4gb,500gb w/SD2, Reason 4, and LE9

    http://s591.photobucket.com/albums/ss358/Charlygo/



  14. #14

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    You should be fine Cycle, but the quality is not going to be as good as with XLR, however you are not recording a studio album, you are simply making killer drum videos, so just go with the 1/4" and get to making vids my friend.
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  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by CycleDude View Post
    OK, the point to all this is i can't afford a $300 mixer with 8 XLR inputs.

    So for my purposes of home recording and drum videos and such the 4 XLR inputs are the preferred input (1-kick, 2-snare, 3-rack & 4-floor toms) but I could go to 1/4" on the other channels for the (5/6 room) and (7/8 cymbals) without a problem, using dynamic mics.

    Correct?
    Doing it this way will be GREAT man.
    FILL YOUR LIFE WITH INSPIRATION TO INSPIRE

    DW Collectors - Paragon - Vic Firth -

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlyG View Post
    BTW, just to clarify, audiotech is more knowledgeable than me. And tween the two of us, i hope we make sense! I still have to look this stuff up!
    Thanks CharlyG, but i'm just trying to fill in some info between projects over here. Your doing fine!

    Thanks,
    Dennis

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
    The 1/4" stereo inputs would probably only have an input level somewhere between -10 to -30 decibels which is called line level. This may or may not depending on the mixer also just give you either a left or right feed to that input. The sensitivity of the mixer on these inputs would be too low since dynamic microphone levels are approximately -55 DB.
    The mixer's specs are:

    Mic In Sensitivity Range: -60dBu to –10dBu nominal, +5dBu maximum

    Line In Sensitivity Range: -40dBu to -+10dBu nominal, +25dBu maximum

    Mic/Line Gain Range: +10 to +60dB

    Tape In Level (RCA): -10dBV nominal, +5dBV maximum

    And the mic's specs are:

    Frequency Response ......................50-12,000 HZ
    Sensitivity (@ 1KHz,74dB S.P.L.) ....-76dB ±3dB
    Impedance ........................................250Ω (Lo Z)
    Maximum S.R.L. (1%T.H.D.) ............>130 dB

    So it should be fine.
    Last edited by CycleDude; 03-20-2009 at 04:02 PM.
    Kevin
    DW Performance series - Gun Metal Metallic Lacquer
    24/12/16 6.5x14
    Sabian AA/AAX hi-hats & crashes
    Sabian HHX Evolution ride

    Drummers can be very tempomental.....

  18. #18

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    si
    Yamaha DTXtreme III FrankenXpress w/ various pads and cymbals
    Pearl Eliminator w/Vater Bomber
    Roc-N-Soc Motion
    Vater 7A Sugar Maple
    Simmons DA-200S
    Sony MDR-7506
    MacBookPro Core2 Duo 2.33,4gb,500gb w/SD2, Reason 4, and LE9

    http://s591.photobucket.com/albums/ss358/Charlygo/



  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by CycleDude View Post
    The mixer's specs are:

    Mic In Sensitivity Range: -60dBu to –10dBu nominal, +5dBu maximum

    Line In Sensitivity Range: -40dBu to -+10dBu nominal, +25dBu maximum

    Mic/Line Gain Range: +10 to +60dB

    Tape In Level (RCA): -10dBV nominal, +5dBV maximum

    And the mic's specs are:

    Frequency Response ......................50-12,000 HZ
    Sensitivity (@ 1KHz,74dB S.P.L.) ....-76dB ±3dB
    Impedance ........................................250Ω (Lo Z)
    Maximum S.R.L. (1%T.H.D.) ............>130 dB

    So it should be fine.

    According to the specs, the line input (1/4") sensitivity is only -40 DB and the output of your mics are -76 DB. This will cause for a very low signal into the line input of your mixer. Were talking 36 decibels as opposed to nominal mic input range of only 16 decibels. 20 decibels is quite large a difference. Being minus voltage figures, -76 DB is much lower in sensitivity than what a -40 will be.

    The output voltage of your microphones is a bit low for that of a dynamic microphone to begin with, but they are intended to be used with drums I suppose. If you get the mics close in and play loud it might work. The line input stages of the mixer have no mic pres built in because you don't need them for line level inputs such as an MP3, tape deck or whatever.

    Sorry I can't give you better news, all I can say is try it, it won't harm anything if it doesn't work.

    Any questions, just ask,
    Dennis

  20. #20

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    cool thread, I learned a lot more than I thought I already new.
    Audiotech you r d man, please stick around.!!
    top marks bud.



    Official cowbell hater.

  21. #21

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    I am also monitoring this thread closely for tips. I am still working to understand all the electronic aspects of the PA systems. I was wondering, though, if a mic preamp might help with CycleDude's DB discrpency between the mics and the mixer.
    Quoting gonefishin: Just have some bacon with ya when you go pick her up..........youre an instant chick magnet.





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  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by pastor_bob View Post
    I am also monitoring this thread closely for tips. I am still working to understand all the electronic aspects of the PA systems. I was wondering, though, if a mic preamp might help with CycleDude's DB discrpency between the mics and the mixer.
    It's very possible to use external mic preamps to interface between his dynamic microphones and the mixer line inputs. He would need four individual preamps or two stereo or dual channel preamps to interface the number of microphones he wants to use. Buying any decent external microphone preamp would probably be cost prohibited and cost more than the mixer itself. It's fairly easy to R&D mic preamps into a mixer at the initial stages of development and manufacture of any particular mixer, it's just a handful of chips and other components. An external preamp not only uses a lot of these same components, but it also needs a source of power, cabinetry and also the research and development of this interface. I've seen mic pres go from anywhere between $150 for a simple two channel Symetrix that can be found on Ebay to an Avalon two channel preamp costing thousands of dollars. A lot of the better channel strips also have a form of impedance matching, parametric equalization, compression and volume level indicators to monitor input level, output level and the amount of gain reduction that the compressor is using on the signal. All this is tied together with a really low noise floor which is more important today than it was years ago in the analog days.

    But to sum it up again, the line inputs of any mixer will work with any mic preamp line output. If it was me, I would probably try to sell the existing mixer and purchase one with the microphone inputs that are needed for the task.

    Dennis
    Last edited by audiotech; 03-21-2009 at 06:27 PM.

  23. #23

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    As we sat at the pizza shop having supper, I forgot to mention another option. If you wanted to use your current mixer and it's 4 microphone inputs, you could get another inexpensive mixer that has another 4 mic inputs. This second mixer's outputs could be routed into the main mixer's line level inputs. You could mix the four mics on the sub mixer and four mic on your main mixer with the sub used as a stereo feed on inputs 5 & 6 of your main mixer.

    Just another option,
    Dennis

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratmycue View Post
    cool thread, I learned a lot more than I thought I already new.
    Audiotech you r d man, please stick around.!!
    top marks bud.

    I'll be sticking around for a while unless you guys give me the boot for taking up too much bandwidth with my responses.

    Thanks,
    Dennis

  25. #25

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    Just found this one at $199 at GC. This looks like a contender. No firewire though, but I suppose I could get one of those $25 stereo RCA to USB adapters.

    Last edited by CycleDude; 03-21-2009 at 10:27 PM.
    Kevin
    DW Performance series - Gun Metal Metallic Lacquer
    24/12/16 6.5x14
    Sabian AA/AAX hi-hats & crashes
    Sabian HHX Evolution ride

    Drummers can be very tempomental.....

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