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Thread: Music notation question

  1. #1

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    I've been notating some music lately. I have a question about beaming together notes. I've seen it done two different ways and I'm curious if there is a reason or standard.

    I see a lot of music (in 4/4) where they beam together eighth notes in groups of 4. I've seen other music (in 4/4) where they beam together eighth notes in groups of 2.

    I'm trying to figure out the correct way of doing it. The only decent explanation I've found was an article on music theory that said the number of notes beamed together is determined by the value that "gets the beat". So in 4/4 a quarter gets the beat. So all the beamed groups should add up to a quarter. So that would mean that eighth notes should be beamed together in groups of 2. 16th notes should be beamed together in groups of 4. 32nd notes should be beamed together in groups of 8. Correct? (see the image below)



    If that above statement is correct, why do I see the majority of drum music notation beaming together eigth notes in groups of 4 as in the image below?

  2. #2

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    In 4/4 time 4 8th notes can be grouped if they fall on beats 1 and 2 or 3 and 4. This is just an exception to the rule you mentioned and pretty much subject to personal preference and/or readability of the rhythmic phrase you want to emphasize. However you should not join the 8th notes that span over the middle of the bar.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trommler View Post
    In 4/4 time 4 8th notes can be grouped if they fall on beats 1 and 2 or 3 and 4. This is just an exception to the rule you mentioned and pretty much subject to personal preference and/or readability of the rhythmic phrase you want to emphasize. However you should not join the 8th notes that span over the middle of the bar.

    Thanks Trommler! So, if you chose to beam together eighth notes in groups of 4 would you automatically group 16ths in groups of 8 or would you still group 16ths in groups of 4?

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_d View Post

    If that above statement is correct, why do I see the majority of drum music notation beaming together eigth notes in groups of 4 as in the image below?

    no double lines ..

    its a quick way to glance to see if 16ths are coming up

    look for doubled lines at the top of the notes

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_d View Post
    Thanks Trommler! So, if you chose to beam together eighth notes in groups of 4 would you automatically group 16ths in groups of 8 or would you still group 16ths in groups of 4?
    No, the grouping of 4 applies to the 8th notes. With all the others it is the rule you mentioned which in short is "We beam the beat".

    So in 4/4 you group 16th in groups of 4 which make up a quarter note, you group 32th notes in groups of 8 (with a subdivision=double beam in the middle for readability).

    In 6/8 you group 16th notes in pairs but here 3 pairs can be joined by a 8th note beam to make a group of 6 which makes it better to read I guess.

    As far as I learned there are no strict "laws" how to beam notes but the general rule is that the beaming should reflect the time signature. You should also take into consideration the readability and the phrasing.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trommler View Post
    No, the grouping of 4 applies to the 8th notes. With all the others it is the rule you mentioned which in short is "We beam the beat".

    So in 4/4 you group 16th in groups of 4 which make up a quarter note, you group 32th notes in groups of 8 (with a subdivision=double beam in the middle for readability).

    In 6/8 you group 16th notes in pairs but here 3 pairs can be joined by a 8th note beam to make a group of 6 which makes it better to read I guess.

    As far as I learned there are no strict "laws" how to beam notes but the general rule is that the beaming should reflect the time signature. You should also take into consideration the readability and the phrasing.
    Trommler, you rock! Thanks so much!

    My drum teacher wants me to notate and learn "Rikki Don't Lose That Number" by Steely Dan. Here's what I've got so far. If you see anything blatantly wrong, please let me know.

    Last edited by Doc_d; 10-20-2010 at 12:11 PM.

  7. #7

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    Measures 7-17: the first bass drum should be a dotted quarter note, and the last bass drum should be either a half note or a quarter note and a quarter rest. Remember to dot the quarter notes in measure 14, too.

    Measure 18: if a note crosses over the middle of the measure, it should be divided at the middle of the measure and tied. Rewrite the measure as eighth - quarter - eighth (TIE) eighth - quarter - eighth.

    Measure 21: same deal as in measure 18. Rewrite the dotted quarter rest as a quarter and an eighth.

    Measure 22 onward: you can write the last cross stick as a dotted quarter to make the rhythm look less cluttered.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wavelength View Post
    Measures 7-17: the first bass drum should be a dotted quarter note, and the last bass drum should be either a half note or a quarter note and a quarter rest. Remember to dot the quarter notes in measure 14, too.

    Measure 18: if a note crosses over the middle of the measure, it should be divided at the middle of the measure and tied. Rewrite the measure as eighth - quarter - eighth (TIE) eighth - quarter - eighth.

    Measure 21: same deal as in measure 18. Rewrite the dotted quarter rest as a quarter and an eighth.

    Measure 22 onward: you can write the last cross stick as a dotted quarter to make the rhythm look less cluttered.
    Thanks Wavelength! I actually do have the rests in there in measures 7-17, but the notation software has an option to hide "useless rests". I turn this on when editting to make things less cluttered. I forgot to turn it off.

    This brings up a great point though. When does it make more sense to use a dotted note versus a non dotted note and a rest? Technically speaking drums have no sustain so in theory everything should be a 32nd note with lots of rests. That would obviously be cumbersome so we use larger note values, but there seems to be a lot of unwritten rules, because you don't always use the full note values. It's very rarely that I see a snare or bass hit written as a half or whole note. If you did, you'd see 2 and 4 on the snare written like this:



    So for a bass hit on 1 and the "&" of 2 should the bass hit on one be a dotted quarter or should it be a quarter with an eighth note rest? I looked through a couple of Hal Leonard books I have and guess what? I see it being done both ways. So I guess the question is which is the more standard of the two ways?



    Thanks for the tip about not letting notes cross the middle of a measure! I did not know than and often wondered why I'd see tied notes sometimes. Now I know!

    For measures 22 onward you suggest writing the last cross stick as a dotted quarter. Is there a reason I wouldn't also write the first cross stick as a dotted quarter as well?



    I went ahead and made all the changes you suggest. Thank so much! I really appreciate the mentoring!
    Last edited by Doc_d; 10-22-2010 at 10:40 AM.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_d View Post
    This brings up a great point though. When does it make more sense to use a dotted note versus a non dotted note and a rest? Technically speaking drums have no sustain so in theory everything should be a 32nd note with lots of rests. That would obviously be cumbersome so we use larger note values, but there seems to be a lot of unwritten rules, because you don't always use the full note values. It's very rarely that I see a snare or bass hit written as a half or whole note.
    At least for me, reading dotted notes is easier than reading non-dotted notes and rests. It facilitates reading longer passages at a glance, whereas reading rests seems to require more involvement.

    Thanks for the tip about not letting notes cross the middle of a measure! I did not know than and often wondered why I'd see tied notes sometimes. Now I know!

    For measures 22 onward you suggest writing the last cross stick as a dotted quarter. Is there a reason I wouldn't also write the first cross stick as a dotted quarter as well?
    Same deal; a dotted quarter would cross the middle of the measure. In this instance a quarter note and a rest is easier to read than a quarter note tied to an eighth note.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wavelength View Post
    At least for me, reading dotted notes is easier than reading non-dotted notes and rests. It facilitates reading longer passages at a glance, whereas reading rests seems to require more involvement.



    Same deal; a dotted quarter would cross the middle of the measure. In this instance a quarter note and a rest is easier to read than a quarter note tied to an eighth note.
    Doh! That imaginary bar line in the middle of a measure is going to take some getting used to. But that also answers my other question above why people don't write the snare on 2 and 4 like this.



    Thanks a lot Wavelength! That clears up a lot for me!

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_d View Post
    Thanks Wavelength! I actually do have the rests in there in measures 7-17, but the notation software has an option to hide "useless rests". I turn this on when editting to make things less cluttered. I forgot to turn it off.

    This brings up a great point though. When does it make more sense to use a dotted note versus a non dotted note and a rest? Technically speaking drums have no sustain so in theory everything should be a 32nd note with lots of rests. That would obviously be cumbersome so we use larger note values, but there seems to be a lot of unwritten rules, because you don't always use the full note values. It's very rarely that I see a snare or bass hit written as a half or whole note. If you did, you'd see 2 and 4 on the snare written like this:



    So for a bass hit on 1 and the "&" of 2 should the bass hit on one be a dotted quarter or should it be a quarter with an eighth note rest? I looked through a couple of Hal Leonard books I have and guess what? I see it being done both ways. So I guess the question is which is the more standard of the two ways?



    Thanks for the tip about not letting notes cross the middle of a measure! I did not know than and often wondered why I'd see tied notes sometimes. Now I know!

    For measures 22 onward you suggest writing the last cross stick as a dotted quarter. Is there a reason I wouldn't also write the first cross stick as a dotted quarter as well?



    I went ahead and made all the changes you suggest. Thank so much! I really appreciate the mentoring!
    I love this song! Thanks for posting the notations!

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by late8 View Post
    I love this song! Thanks for posting the notations!

    I'm only notating the section that I was asked to learn for this week. If he has me learn the rest (or I decide to do it on my own), I'll post the rest of it up.

  13. #13

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    What is that software, I'm curious!

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_d View Post
    I'm only notating the section that I was asked to learn for this week. If he has me learn the rest (or I decide to do it on my own), I'll post the rest of it up.
    I was playing this tune by ear at band practice last week and I'm really surprised how close I played it to the notation...especially the intro.

    I gotta by some chimes for this tune...

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZackPomerleau View Post
    What is that software, I'm curious!

    GuitarPro. It's the best thing I've found so far (at a reasonable price) for notating drums. It does a reasonable job of playing back the music as well. I attached an MP3 I created of what I notated so far below.

    http://mywebpages.comcast.net/tdoolitt/rikki.mp3
    Last edited by Doc_d; 10-22-2010 at 03:11 PM.

  16. #16

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    Cool, thanks for letting me know!!!

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by late8 View Post
    I was playing this tune by ear at band practice last week and I'm really surprised how close I played it to the notation...especially the intro.

    I gotta by some chimes for this tune...

    I got around to notating a little more of it. I also went back and fixed some mistakes I made. The bass drum is really low in the mix in a few sections. Originally I thought it wasn't there, but after listening very closely about 100 times, I'm pretty sure it's there, it's just super low in the mix.

    I figured I'd throw it up in case anyone was interested. I might try to finish it up next week.






  18. #18

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    Nice work... Here's some more feedback!

    From measure 29 onward, when you're using sixteenth notes among eighth notes, divide the beams on every quarter note. For instance, beam the two eighth notes together, then beam the four sixteenths together, and in measure 34, beam the two eighth notes together, then beam the eighth note and the two sixteenths together.

    This one slipped previously past my brain, but from measure 7 onward, you should write the accent symbols above the staff since they target the cymbal notes.

    Does your teacher teach you to write for drumset in two voices: one for the hands and one for the feet? While it is a common way of writing (maybe a bit old fashioned...), I'm usually more comfortable both reading and writing music which is written in one voice only: all the notes are written in single stems. This way you won't have to worry about reading and writing those rests in the bass drum lines, and everything lines up more nicely. It also makes the drumset conceptually more like a single instrument as opposed to a combination of instruments played with hands and another set of instruments played with feet...

    Last edited by Wavelength; 10-24-2010 at 02:11 AM.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wavelength View Post
    Nice work... Here's some more feedback!

    From measure 29 onward, when you're using sixteenth notes among eighth notes, divide the beams on every quarter note. For instance, beam the two eighth notes together, then beam the four sixteenths together, and in measure 34, beam the two eighth notes together, then beam the eighth note and the two sixteenths together.
    Will do! I think you mentioned this before, I just forgot to do it. In the software you setup how you want to beam the groups by default. I have it setup to beam in half notes. For those figures with the 16ths I'll have to go back and manually correct them to beam in groups of quarters.

    This one slipped previously past my brain, but from measure 7 onward, you should write the accent symbols above the staff since they target the cymbal notes.
    This is actually one of the shortcommings of this software. It always seems to put accents under the staff. I contacted them about it and they are looking into it.

    Does your teacher teach you to write for drumset in two voices: one for the hands and one for the feet? While it is a common way of writing (maybe a bit old fashioned...), I'm usually more comfortable both reading and writing music which is written in one voice only: all the notes are written in single stems. This way you won't have to worry about reading and writing those rests in the bass drum lines, and everything lines up more nicely. It also makes the drumset conceptually more like a single instrument as opposed to a combination of instruments played with hands and another set of instruments played with feet...

    My teacher has never specifically said. This is the first large piece of music I've notated. In the past I've just notated snare pieces, etc. He did tell me that hands are notated stems up and feet are notated stems down so I guess that's really saying notate them as two voices right? Notating everything in one voice means the stems would all be going the same direction by definition.

    I'd have asked my teacher a lot of these questions but he's out of state playing for Tony Orlando. He'll be back in time for my next lesson so I'll go over a lot of these with him.

    Thanks again!

  20. #20

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    Didn't read all the rsponses here but: Don't have any idea where you heard this about notation and a count. Never heard of it before. For your second example it's chart notation and the "beamed" notes indcate the ride cymbal is played with one hand. Not really necessary notation but it helps with a visual of whats going on and in more involved charts, that can help a lot.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_d View Post
    .

    I'd have asked my teacher a lot of these questions but he's out of state playing for Tony Orlando. He'll be back in time for my next lesson so I'll go over a lot of these with him.
    lol...

    The keyboard player in my group used to play with TO. Pm me and I'll give you his name....maybe they know each other.
    "The problem with information on the Internet is that you can not validate it's authenticity. " -Abraham Lincoln

    SILVERFOX DRUMSTICKS & SOULTONE CYMBALS Endorsing Artist.

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